McCollum Leads Discussion about the St. Croix River Crossing Project
Rep. Betty McCollum (D-Minn.) says the argument that it would take another decade to build a smaller, more "fiscally responsible" alternative to the St. Croix River Crossing Project is “poppycock.”
Rep. Betty McCollum spoke to a group of about 100 Stillwater residents Saturday morning at Episcopal Church of the Ascension about her opposition to the "extra-dosed" four-lane St. Croix River Crossing Project.
Stillwater City Council Member Micky Cook and Oak Park Heights Mayor David Beaudet joined the Fourth-District Congresswoman during the discussion.
McCollum does not dispute the need to replace Stillwater’s Historic Lift Bridge, but she takes issue with the scope, cost and size of the four-lane, freeway-style plan.
“I really thought MnDOT had to come forward and figure out a win-win,” McCollum said. “A win for Wisconsin. A win for Minnesota. A win for the environment. And a win for this community.”
But she says the “extra-dosed” proposal doesn’t do that.
McCollum said her “worst nightmare” was realized when the current proposal was amended to become, by statute, a 65-mph crossing that she says will cost more than $700 million when all is said and done.
MnDOT says the project will cost between $574-690 million.
”A win-win is building the right-sized bridge and taking the rest of the money to repair the state’s other deficient bridges,” McCollum said.
There are 1,000 deficient bridges across the state, she said, 53 of which are in Minnesota's Fourth Congressional District.
As a former member of the Minnesota House and a current member of the U.S. Congress on the Appropriations Committee, McCollum said if all of the eggs go in one basket to build the St. Croix River Crossing, the East Metro won’t be able to afford the infrastructure work that will need to be done on Highway 36, while completing the infrastructure work about 5 miles away on Interstate 94.
“It will become a choice,” she said. “And that choice might be that heavy development happens in western Wisconsin and 36—which is already at capacity—becomes a huge bottleneck and Interstate 94 doesn’t get fixed, either. All of the money can go to the West Metro.”
Pass, Die or Hung Up in Litigation
Sen. Amy Klobuchar’s St. Croix River Crossing Authorization Act unanimously passed out of the Senate earlier this month and shares identical language with Rep. Michele Bachmann’s bill that is awaiting a congressional vote.
“It passed out of the Senate on a voice vote,” McCollum said. “They didn’t discuss it for a second. It did not pass out of committee unanimously in the Senate, but it passed out of the Senate floor without a discussion.”
From there, the bill will likely go on the suspension calendar, McCollum said, which means it can’t be amended and there would be 20 minutes of discussion—10 minutes for each side—before the vote.
To pass out of the suspension calendar, the vote needs to be higher than a 50-percent threshold.
“I think it will likely pass,” McCollum said of Bachmann's bill. “But, I don’t have a crystal ball.”
It is also possible that the river crossing bill wouldn’t come up this session, could die on suspension, or pass and end up in litigation with some of the issues the Oak Park Heights City Council has alluded to with the challenges and concerns they face with utility relocation, McCollum said.
‘The Bridge Might Hit a Snag’
Ultimately, the St. Croix River Crossing would connect Oak Park Heights with Houlton, Wis., and there are some issues that need to be resolved to that end.
The Oak Park Heights City Council on Tuesday unanimously passed a resolution questioning the availability for utility relocation funding.
“We are very much concerned about the utility relocation money that was redirected someplace unknown in the process of amending this project,” Oak Park Heights Mayor David Beaudet said. “We’re very concerned because it is the single biggest cost-effect to the city.”
The $3.66 million earmark for utility location was part of discussions stemming back to 2005.
The Oak Park Heights resolution is two fold. It asks federal officials to explain where the money is; and MnDOT, as the project’s fiscal agent, to confirm that the funds are available.
Oak Park Heights has not granted, or even been approached to grant, municipal consent for the current river crossing project, Beaudet said. The consent MnDOT talks of is that from a 1995 consent that was signed for a project they can’t build because it violated the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act.
In an interview last week with Oak Park Heights City Council Member Mary McComber, she said she expects that Sen. Klobuchar will give the city an explanation of what the offset means.
Utility relocation along Highway 36 is estimated to cost about $20 million, according to the Oak Park Heights resolution. The project could increase the city’s property tax an extra $400-500 a year for the next 10 years.
When looking at all the scenarios, “the bridge might hit a snag,” McCollum said. “If that happens it’s important for us to stand up with one strong voice and say let’s do it with fiscal responsibility; let’s do it with environmental responsibly; and let’s just do it. It’s time to put this aside, so the community can focus on other things.”
A Thousand Other Bridges
McCollum said the argument that building a less expensive alternative to the current bridge would take at least 10 years is “poppycock.”
All riverbeds are different, McCollum said, but MnDOT did the Lafayette Bridge for less than $250 million and it services $80,000 cars every day.
“We can do better,” she said. “We can get a better bang for our buck.”
“Another big myth,” McCollum said, is that if the current proposal doesn’t pass, the federal government will lose the money and the project will go away.
“That is absolutely not true,” she said. “The money is there. It could be put toward other projects if we reduce the size and the scope of this bridge.”
The Lift Bridge needs to be replaced, McCollum said. But so do a thousand other bridges across the state.
“That’s a fact. It is no more dangerous than those thousand other bridges,” she said. “If this is going to be our criteria, then we need to replace every one of those bridges as soon as possible.”
Mary Pozziini
6:17 am on Sunday, February 5, 2012
Agree with Betty on many things, but she's dead wrong on this issue.
Jim
12:08 pm on Sunday, February 5, 2012
Some ideas:
The Stillwater bridge is in need of removal and upgrade to a freeway crossing of the St. Croix.
Why don't we construct a replica of the Golden Gate over the St. Croix with NO footings in the river.
Once complete completely remove the old lift bridge and return the riverbed to it's pre bridge condition.
Then to complete the project build some cable cars on the steep hills of Stillwater.
The net result would be a much improved river vally. The rusty hulk of a lift bridge that reminds me of Cleveland Ohio would be removed. The riverbed would be restored and all bridge footings would be removed. The river valley would be a beautiful site with people traveling from all over to view the area and ride the cable cars a stop along the route to shop.
BTW, if all stoplights and stopsigns were removed from highway 36 and the river crossing a 2 lane bridge should be adaquate. IMHO, all stoplights on highway 36 should be converted to overpasses prior to building any bridge over the St Croix. The best approach would to build a 3 lane bridge with the third lane being reversed during rush hour as needed.
Bob McDaniel
12:17 pm on Sunday, February 5, 2012
I agree with Betty McCollum! I am a former long-term resident of Oak Park Heights, and now a Wisconsin resident and can see no legitimate reason to spend a colossal amount of money on a mega bridge that serves only 2 purposes: relieves traffic congestion on the historic lift bridge in downtown Stillwater, and gives Wisconsin residents a freeway style of commuting to the Twin Cities. It would also create a real estate boom for Houlton and probably Somerset and New Richmond. No such thing in Minnesota.
The Federal Wild & Scenic Rivers Act is there for a good reason and allowing an exemption sets a dangerous precedent for hundreds to possibly thousands of projects across the country.
The Minnesota-Wisconsin crossing has been in the works since I was a teenager in the 50s and should have been built decades ago. But this extravagant proposal violates fiscal responsibility especially during a time of budget deficits.
Bob McDaniel
Susan
1:52 pm on Sunday, February 5, 2012
To date, the most expensive bridge in Minnesota was the the 35W bridge. It cost $250 million dollars, and carries 140,000 cars daily. This proposed St. Croix River crossing project will cost nearly three times the prices ($690 million), and carry just one-eighth the number of cars daily (18,000). This is a huge price tag, for such a small population. How many other bridges could be repaired in Minnesota and Wisconsin if we scaled this project down, and applied the balance of the funds elsewhere?
Richard
2:18 pm on Sunday, February 5, 2012
I thought the country was broke? How can we find money in the huge amounts to build a bridge to serve western Wisconsin? I live in Wisconsin. It just does not make sense. The one banker from New Richmond is so conservative with other spending by the Federal and State governments, yet he can't seem to spend taxpayer money fast enough for a bridge that will make him money. If our country is broke and virtaully bankrupt why do we keep spending money we simply don't have? If we are bankrupt then we are bankrupt. No bridge with my tax dollars!!
Stillwater resident
10:41 pm on Sunday, February 5, 2012
Stillwater is home - Luv our WI cabin
"The St. Croix River Crossing Coalition poll found that 86 percent of area residents support a four-lane bridge to replace the 80-year-old Stillwater lift bridge." Really? What poll?..no one asked my family or myself. We live in Stillwater, we have a cabin in WI and our children live in WI. We aren’t anxious to spoil the beauty of the St Croix River Valley with this expensive bridge for our traveling convenience. Build a smaller bridge to WI for those who cross the river. Once you spoil the scenic river valley a new generation will wonder what all the fuss was about to build such a large and expensive bridge.
Oh, maybe the new bridge will be quaint, unique and have old world charm, just like our little town!
William Pappas
6:08 am on Monday, February 6, 2012
Bob is spot on. The fiscal irresponsibility of the mega bridge is stunning. As any truthful US congressperson could tell you, there are several particualr projects that are simply waiting for the legal precedent Amy's legislation will establish to give them a legal template for moving forward with bridges and development in designated rivers in the WSRA. To imperil all designated rivers for the singular purposes of relieving a small portion of Wisconsin commuter's driving time and easing congestion in Stillwater is tragic. Especially since an alternative can be negotiated that will NOT need an exemption and WON'T take another ten years to approve. A bridge is needed but it must conform to the restrictions placed on bridges by the WSRA. I personally believe that the Interior Department and the Park Service will reject the in-your-face arrogance of the megabridge design precisely because it will destroy the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act and because less objectionable alternatives exist. The WSRA has served Stillwater and the St. Croix Valley for over 4 decades. Diminishing its protections will be destructive of the area's natural history that has survived with the help of the WSRA. Thank you Betty for injecting honest facts into what has been a one-way river of misinformation from superbridge advocates.
D. Knutson
8:19 am on Monday, February 6, 2012
The arguments have been made for an environmentally, scenic friendly, fiscally responsible, size appropriate bridge FOR YEARS!
The country going broke and we don't have enough money for all of our bridges to be fixed, are just some of the latest excuses being floated out there as "good" reasons not to build this bridge. Most people using these excuses have opposed the bridge for years, they just had different reasons in the past.
All I can say is it sure would be nice to get our downtown of years past back. You remember the one without the bumper to bumper traffic idling, especially on Friday & Saturday evenings. Many of you that have opinions on a smaller bridge, or no bridge at all, were not around when we were able to walk around downtown and enjoy it without traffic noise and exhaust in the air. In fact many opposers are not from the area, and probably add little economic benefit to the area at all, but we should listen to them.
I for one am looking forward to Sept 10, 2012 when the bridge is closed for 4-months worth of repairs, too bad they're not starting the repairs in June or July. The last time the bridge closed for extensive repairs it was great, even the business community enjoyed it and saw no fall off in business.
That's why we need the bridge, enough of the opposition from those that don't live here or support the community.
Randy Marsh
11:22 am on Monday, February 6, 2012
Mr. Knutson, much of what you say is true, except that we can return to a more peaceful and friendly downtown without a four lane maga bridge that costs way too much money for the purpose it serves. You can complain all you want about opposition from those who don't live here, but the precedent set could have the potential to impact every other national park or scenic waterway in the country. Also, the money to pay for this massively oversized project is coming from outside the St. Croix Valley and those taxpayers have every right to be furious with that money being spent wastefully.
D. Knutson
12:22 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
Precedence has already been set when the St Croix River Bridges at Hudson, Wisconsin were added/reconstructed in the 1990's. The existing bridge was in disrepair and needed to be replaced, and it took less than a year to get it built.
Isn't this bridge in the Scenic St Croix Riverway, or am I missing something? They went from 4 lanes to the current 6 lanes, and in high traffic times there are frequent backups, so even adding 2 new lanes has not kept traffic moving at posted speeds all the time.
That's the argument for the extra lane on the new bridge, or would we rather complain in 20 years that is should have been 4 lanes instead of 3 lanes and start another 30 year debate.
It's been stated before, if there had not been all the opposition, and frivolous lawsuits wasting millions of taxpayer dollars, there would already be a bridge in place. The best guess would be that 20 years ago they wouldn't have built a 4 lane bridge.
I'm sick of all the money being wasted too; increased cost of construction coupled with the taxpayer money wasted on studies, research, lawsuits, and extensive repairs to the existing structure probably could have paid the cost of the bridge had it been built 20 years ago.
So those complaining about wasteful spending did a great job in driving all the costs and expenses up over the years, ironic isn't it?
Susan
8:39 am on Monday, February 6, 2012
I live three blocks from Main Street and am very aware of the traffic back-ups. Back-ups that happen predominantly during the summer months, and it is because the lift bridge is lifted so frequently. There are times on Saturday and Sundays when that bridge can lift more than a dozen times each day....many times every half hour. This schedule is what causes the majority of the back-ups. Why aren't our lawmakers working to change the lift bridge schedule? This would immediately alleviate the congestion, and cost almost nothing.
Martin Greis
12:16 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
Susan: Your solution makes a lot of sense. Most of the large boats that need the bridge to lift can only go a short distance further up the river anyway. It seems as though these boaters have a sense of pride knowing they own a boat so big that the bridge has to lift. It would be interesting to know how far up the river they can actually go. Are they all going to PD pappys?
Hudsoner
11:51 am on Monday, February 6, 2012
Last time when I looked at the pristine river valley, I looked at the pristine views of the power plant and the Anderson factory. Quite a pristine vista that is!
And yes, it is a great idea to close the lift bridge for 4 months. We just cause the traffic to move through down town Hudson, who cares, as long as it does not bother Stillwater!
Martin Greis
12:09 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
Martin
This whole bridge fiasco is ridiculous . It seems we have but one representitive in Minnesota government (Betty McCollum) that has stepped back and seen the madness of a $700,000,000.00 dollar freeway-style bridge, placed in an area between two small cities that will mainly serve the sparse population of Wisconsin. As others have said, this bridge is three to four times more expensive than it has to be. Its main purpose will be to make it easier and faster for Wisconsin commuters to get to their jobs at Andersen windows and points beyond. It dosn't make sense to me to build a very expensive bridge for the sake of these Wisconsin commuters. If it were it on an even keel with commuters from Minnesota and Wisconsin going both ways it would be a different story. But...it isn't, and we know it. Add the bridge cost and the highway 36 costs together and you are looking at nearly $400,000,000.00 dollars. Klocubar, Bachmann and Franken should be ashamed of themselves, pushing this on us Minnesotans at a time when the state is so broke...or that's what we hear anyway...broke enough to not give property tax refunds this year, and in essence raising most peoples property taxes $500 to $700 per year. Who do they really work for? Wisconsin? Please keep up the great work Congresswoman McCollum!
D. Knutson
12:20 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
@Hudsoner
I feel your pain, Hudson today is what Stillwater was 30 years ago, but I'm wondering why its okay for the traffic to go through Stillwater and not Hudson?
The big campaign years ago was "Escape to Wisconsin" and a lot of people did, taking their money across the river too. So it appears to be okay to get the tax base and revenue but not the traffic.
We've put up with the thru traffic going through Stillwater and across the river to spend money earned in Minnesota for years, so I believe if they're driving through Hudson they live over there somewhere??
So let's take down those ugly power lines crossing the river into Wisconsin, and let's turn Andersen Windows (which started in Hudson) into a pretty park, and put all those residents over in Wisconsin out of work. That will help the traffic levels a few times a day....
Bob K
3:29 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
I'm sick and tired of bridge opponents twisting the facts by mischaracterizing the Wild & Scenic Rivers Act and using phrases like "national park" and "scenic waterway."
The St. Croix valley is not a national park nor is the river designated a scenic waterway by the WSRA, which does not offer blanket protection against all development on all designated rivers.
Read Section 2 of the WSRA (http://www.usda.gov/rus/water/ees/pdf/wsra.pdf).
Rivers are "classified, designated and administered" as 1) wild or 2) scenic or 3) recreational. The St. Croix is clearly a recreational river -- not wild and not scenic.
Criticize the cost if you like, but the truth is that the WSRA is the prime culprit in the ridiculously escalated price tag of any bridge that gets built. This incongruous act, which never should have been applied to a river in a growing metropolitan area, has been the rationale of one delaying lawsuit after another by the Sierra Club and other environmental groups, which don't give a endangered rat's behind about the quality of life in Stillwater.
In addition to the delays, the cost of a replacement for the aging Lift Bridge has also been inflated beyond reason by the mitigation necessary to satisfy the requirements of the WSRA as interpreted by the current crop of liberals at the Interior Department and the National Park Service who, like Rep. McCollum, don't really care how long it takes to solve this quality of life issue for Stillwater residents.
Hudsoner
8:34 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
As far as I know, the St. Corix is a scenic waterway down from it's source to about the Boom Site a little north of Stillwater. My wife's sister was the park agent who purchased all the Land left and right of the river to make sure that no future developments can be seen from the river. But she never acquired land south of the Boom Site, which means, this part of the river is not part of the scenic waterway. One can get detailed information on this at the park Service office in St. Croix Falls.
William Pappas
5:25 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
Bob, wrong again. MNDOT is the prime culprit in this bridge fiasco. The law is the law and the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act is the primary reason the supersized, in-your-face bridge cannot be built. If MNDOT had taken the right approach instead of shoehorning the largest possible bridge that could fit across the vallley in direct opposition of the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act the bridge would be done. Their insistance in challenging the existing law and designing an unnecessarily large and expensive megabridge nowhere near the existing bridge created the controversy we have today. MNDOT is the culprit, not the people or the civil law in place long before they embarked on a nonconforming design. Supporters of the bridge can demonize those against it all they want but there are plenty of people in Stillwater who think it is a tragic waste of money. This "quality of life" issue shouldn't be solved by exemption legislation or a bridge to huge. In fact I guarantee you the quality of life in both our business districts will degrade if this bridge is built. Tell me, if a shop owner hangs a "sale" sign on their door and they get 18000 cars a day passing it, how does it benefit them to route all those cars as far away from their store as possible? Tell me how the bridge will increase Johnny's TV business? How does a coffe shop downtown get more business after wiping out the 18000 cars a day, especially those in the morning? This isn't about lberals or conservatives.
D. Knutson
6:07 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
In case you missed it William there are a couple pretty good size bridges in Hudson that were built after the WRSA was pushed through by Mondale back in the 60's. Those bridges are a lot bigger than the proposed one in Stillwater. No opposition there, it flew right through congress.
The WSRA was not enacted to prevent bridges from being built, it was established so there was a process to go through, and so that it took congressional approval for a bridge to be built. Fact is that it wasn't a bridge prevention bill, nor a law to prevent anything, just to establish the process to go through for approval.
Got a news flash for you on the traffic impacting the business downtown; when it was closed for 6 weeks a few years ago most businesses saw an increase in sales without the 18,000 cars each day. People are more willing to go downtown when they don't need to fight and dodge those 18,000 cars. So your guarantee has some holes in it, especially considering there are 3 fewer coffee shops downtown today than there was not long ago, Shane's on Main, Starbucks, and Supream Bean have all closed.
Bob K
7:58 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
Bill, the law is actually something quite different than you think it is. You should read it sometime. This is what Wisconsin Senator Gaylord Nelson, sponsor of the WSRA, said after it was approved by a House subcommittee on June 13, 1968:
"It (the WSRA) will provide unmatched recreational opportunity for Wisconsin people. And it will create outstanding new opportunities for private enterprise, tourist and recreational development of our northland."
Nelson was FOR development in Wisconsin, not opposed to it. He and Mondale both realized that accommodations had to be made for future development. No bridge is in "direct opposition" to the WSRA. "Unnecessarily large" is a subjective term, not a legal measuring stick.
As to your lack of understanding regarding downtown businesses, the customer base of those businesses is not commuters, it's residents and tourists. The traffic is a nuisance factor that keeps customers away from downtown businesses. Remove the traffic and you remove the nuisance.
So here's how the new bridge will increase Johnny's TV business. More customers will walk downtown from the North Hill or South Hill or make the short drive from nearby areas because our historic downtown will be more pleasant and accessible with east-west commuter traffic traveling efficiently at 65 mph across the new, adequately sized bridge, bringing new opportunity to Wisconsin -- just the way Gaylord Nelson wanted it.
Susan
6:28 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
I am curious - at this point, should blame really be the issue? Shouldn't the debate be about the extremely large price tag, for a relatively small population, when there are so many other projects needing attention?
Let's use this example: If your car needed new tires and a new battery, would you buy the most expensive, flashy tires you can find, and ignore the battery, or would you get the less expensive (fully functional) tires, that leave enough money to replace your battery as well? This really needs to be about common sense.
Randy Marsh
7:47 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
Well stated, Susan. The parties do need to stop living in the past and realize the mega bridge project is no longer financially viable or feasible. Not sure if you were referring to me, Bob, but I never suggested the St. Croix River Valley was a national park, only that if developers and others of their ilk are allowed to trample federal laws designed to protect areas that are worth protecting that it will affect other areas that should also be preserved. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I moved to Stillwater it wasn't because I felt it was "a growing metropolitan area". If you want to live in Woodbury I'm sure there are plenty of foreclosed houses in empty developments to serve your interests. Preserving Stillwater's charm and non-suburban feel should be our highest priority and I'm not sure why so many are working to destroy it.
Susan
8:07 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
I guess I was speaking to those who want to blame the very high cost of this project on specific organizations vs. looking at how the high cost affects the rest of the state. There may be blame to go around, but all we can do now, is look at the current state we are in (the big picture, not just the St. Croix Valley area), and make decisions accordingly. And for those who are curious, and didn't read above, yes I live in Stillwater, so I do feel my opinion has merit.
Bob K
8:11 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
Randy, what would do more to preserve Stillwater's charm and non-suburban feel than removing nearly 40,000 cars a day from the streets of the historic downtown district? I've invested a lot of money in preserving and improving my historic house and the single biggest irritant about living here for the last 20 years is the growing volume and noise of the traffic downtown. Moving that whole mess to the south would be a huge relief for those of us who love it here and want to improve the quality of life.
Hudsoner
8:51 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
Randy Marsh, we used to go almost every weekend to Stillwater, because the "night life" there is so much better than in Hudson. But we stopped doing this several years ago, because we were not interested to spend half of our free time in some traffic jam trying to get in to town! I don't care how big of a bridge they build, but it should be big enough to handle the traffic now and in the foreseeable future!
Susan
8:26 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
Hi Bob, sorry to jump in, but I have a couple comments. First, there are nine to ten thousand cars daily, going across the bridge twice - MNDOT puts the current figure at about 18,000 cars on the bridge daily. Second, I don't think anyone wants to keep things as they are - there are alternatives. The Sensible Stillwater Bridge group (they have a website, are on Facebook, and Twitter too), are offering up a much less expensive bridge design that also bypasses downtown. Currently MNDOT is opposed to this design, but they haven't really explained why.
I completely agree with you about the traffic and noise, being as I also live in historic (close to downtown) Stillwater, but I believe there are less expensive alternatives (stated above) than this $690,000,000 project.
D. Knutson
8:38 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
I really get a kick out of the name "The Sensible Bridge Group". Some of these people are the ones that vehemently opposed building any type of bridge, and now they are suddenly the kinder and gentler, sensible type because they have a website, Facebook, and Twitter?
They were for the NO BRIDGE OPTION, until it was decided that there will be a Bridge, now they claim to have a SENSIBLE OPTION????
Sorry, not buying into that one...
Susan
8:49 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
Hmmm, well, I am not a part of that group so I can't comment on their past dealings, nor do I really care. What I care about is Minnesota (and Wisconsin) spending their funds in a fiscally responsible manner - a manner that respects, and benefits as many of the state's residents as possible.
If this group has a less expensive alternative, it should be vetted, along with any other reasonable alternative.
Randy Marsh
9:14 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
I firmly believe there are far more people that support a lesser expensive bridge option than no bridge at all, D. Knutson. As for the rest, I believe if they are being honest they would agree that $700 million is outrageous for a bridge that serves so few people but are so tired of this on going saga that they will support anything just to have it settled, no matter how non-sensical the project is considering today's costs. The easy solution is to devise a more sensible plan that serves both interests and the 99.9 percent of taxpayers who don't deserve to have their hard earned money spent so foolishly. End of story.
Susan
9:24 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
Agreed! I believe that when people consider all the options and facts, most will come to the same conclusion - this over-sized, over-priced mega bridge is not the right choice. I fear, like you, that most are just fed up, want it done, and are willing to accept the high price just to have it be done and over.
D. Knutson
9:36 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
End of story"? I guess what Randy says is the gospel and the 99.9% is fact.
As a taxpayer I have had no say in the money wasted by the local, state, and federal agencies involved in all the legal battles brought on by the Sierra Club and other far left factions that opposed the bridge for various agenda driven reasons.
That's what I find outrageous, pandering to these self-interest groups is a big joke.
Let's add up all the wasted dollars from all of those groups, get down to the "real" dollar number on the bridge, not this $700 million dollar figure being floated about, subtract the wasted money from the real bridge number and see what we end up with.
Once we get that number, let's factor in the escalation costs from the time it should have been built years ago if there were no lawsuits by the nut jobs, and send the Sierra Club and the other activists e bill for the difference...... They lost the lawsuits, so they should pay up... PERIOD.
Randy Marsh
9:48 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
Try dealing with reality, D, and stop living in the past. Environmental groups are not going to be charged for the difference and it's the cost of doing business in a democratic society. It sounds like you want to build the bridge out of spite and to pretend that the circumstances haven't changed with the costs doubling is the least responsible thing our public officials can do. It costs what it costs and your lamenting how we got to this point doesn't change the indisputable fact that the current bridge proposal is completely irresponsible to those who will be paying for it.
D. Knutson
10:21 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
The reality I'm wanting to deal with is not having 18,000+ vehicles going through downtown everyday. I understand the whack jobs won't be writing a check, I get that, just likes get the fact it's going to cost a lot of money for a new bridge. So the $400, $600, or $800 million that it ends up costing is as you've put it, the cost of doing business in a democratic society.
I don't care if they build the bridge or not. I don't care if they close the lift bridge and people including me need to use alternate routes. Works for me, save the money, save the snails.
BTW
The idea of not raising the bridge as often is ludicrous, they've already modified the schedule they had years ago to help with Andersen traffic. The afternoon rush hour has the bridge go up at 4:00 & 5:30. In case nobody hasn't noticed, traffic is backed up way before 4:00pm when the bridge goes up.
Bob K
10:46 pm on Monday, February 6, 2012
The Star Tribune editorial of 12/29/11 sums it up best:
U.S. Reps. Betty McCollum and Keith Ellison of Minnesota, both Democrats, oppose the proposed project and are echoing much of the rhetoric of a group pushing an alternative three-lane bridge. The group claims that its bridge would cost millions less and be better suited to the area.
Not true, according to MnDOT, which has issued repeated assessments of the group's plan and did so again last month. Not only does the group underestimate costs, its project would also cause greater harm to the environment.
"The impacts are greater on historical properties, bluff areas, floodplains, wetlands, commercial properties and endangered mussel habitat," MnDOT stated in the latest report.
In our view, the diagonal bridge would create a visual eyesore across a huge swath of the landscape -- whereas the preferred four-lane project is a direct blufftop-to-blufftop route.
Enough is enough. McCollum and Ellison should stop throwing up roadblocks on a project that isn't even in their districts. If they succeed in killing the St. Croix River Crossing project, the process for a selecting a new bridge must start all over again, causing years of delay that can only drive up costs.
The four-lane bridge has been thoroughly vetted over the course of three decades. This is the plan that citizens and other stakeholders chose to best meet the traffic needs of the 21st century while causing the least environmental harm.
Richard
3:01 am on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Hmmmmmmm......how did it happen that a current legislator in Wisconsin was a die-hard Libertarian prior to his election and claimed on his pre-election blog that he was against Big Government spending. Throw out those big-spending rascals he said. Now that he is elected he can't wait to spend our money on a $600 million, $700 million (take your choice) bridge!! Where did that conservative, watch-dog, Libertarian go to? Might be the power of greed? Might also be termed the "Madison Power Grab" and the lowly tax payer be damned.
Richard
3:05 am on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Anyone care to bet that when all is said and done that the over-engineered St. Croix River bridge will cost $1 billion? I am personally embarassed that we will saddle future generations with that type of debt. We can't afford new schools, we can't afford Social Security increases and we are cutting Medicare. We are told the country is on the verge of bankruptcy!! Yet, we can saddle future generations with a $1 billion bridge that is not necessary.
William Pappas
5:27 am on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
D Knutson, you are way off the mark. The extradosed bridge over the St. Croix in Stillwater will litterally dwarf the 94 bridges. The piers for the mega bridge are 3 times larger and much taller than the 94 bridge. In fact there is nothing to compare it to in Minnesota. The problem, D Knutson is that the design is entirely inappropriate for this crossing. Too big, too expensive for such a small corridor. and of course the worst part is that it has the potential to destroy the efficacy of the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act. If you and others want to have a debate to delist the St. Croix River, go right ahead. But the fact remains that the proposed span is illegal in its design and the culprits that have caused this rediculous delay to get a bridge are the forces in MNDOT that decided this monument to "huge" was so necessary they needed to violate the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act to do it. In reality you are having a debate to delist all rivers in the WSRA. Just understand that without it the St. Croix River around Stillwater would not look anything like it does today. It would be cluttered with homes and development right down to the river, degrading the natural environment and history of the valley and certainly the water and recreational desirability of the entire lower river. Ironically he Interior Department is willing to negotiate a comprimise design thatt would not need exempting legislation and will expedite approval for a fiscally responsible solution.
D. Knutson
9:27 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
William
You missed the main point, it wasn't the size of the bridge, how many lanes, the pilings, or how long it was. So let me explain it for you, the fact is they built the bridge many years after the WRSA was enacted, no big arguments, no wacko groups messing with it to stop it being built.
Maybe you could be a little more extreme.......
Illegal? Probably not.
Violate the WRSA? Don't think so.
Delist the St Croix? Not necessary to build the bridge.
Destroy the efficacy of the WRSA? Really?
Cluttered with homes right down to the river? Don't think so..
Just a little bit of embellishment maybe?
William Pappas
5:44 am on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
One other item for you fiscal conservatives out there. The local municipality costs of this bridge are not figured in the 700 million dollar price tag. In fact, the upgrades needed to prevent the bottlenecks on the 36 corridor are estimated to cost in the 200 million dollar plus range. The impacts will be felt all the way to Roseville and drive the the true cost of the bridge over a billion dollars. It doesn't stop there. All that road building needs maintenance, the most expensive type of transportation maintenance ever created. In addition the environmental costs of smog in the valley, many more drainage ponds collecting silt and heavy metals with mounting disposal costs will further burden tax payers. No this bridge will not alleviate traffic and automobile emissions in the valley. It will exacerbate them in a way that is destructive of our quality of life and our business vitality while further increasing our property taxes (4-500 bucks/home on average in Oak Park Hts.). Add the municipal subsidy of extending utility services to sprawl development and you really have a financial disaster for communities in the East Metro. This bridge contradicts everything we know about transportation costs, future transportation trends, efficient use of transportation funds and MNDOT's own stated transportation objectives. Go figure.
country boy
9:45 am on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
McCollum and Ellison are crackpot political hacks. I am glad that they are your representatives.
WP, Professor of Transportation/ financial guru/ environmentalist. Is their some postulation here on your part? Build a bridge that works for everyone. Just remember...the Stillwater preservationists/and other obstructionist organizations have landed us here. Another I35 tragedy soon to happen if the big wheels of government don't start rolling soon.
Bob K
10:09 am on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Bill, did you know that the top source of water pollution in the nation's rivers and lakes is retail development? Doesn't your company build a lot of big-box stores and strip malls in Minnesota?
According to a recent EPA report, shopping centers are the worst polluters because of the volume of traffic they generate and the amount of land they devote to new streets, rooftops and parking lots. New retail centers generate 20 percent more runoff than industrial uses and more than three times as much as residential.
"From an environmental standpoint, parking lots rank among the most harmful land uses in any watershed," according to Tom Schueler of the Center for Watershed Protection. "Simply put, there is no other kind of surface in a watershed that produces more runoff and delivers it [to a local waterway] faster than a parking lot."
So the 350,000-sq. ft. HOM furniture store you built in Coon Rapids and its 16-acre parking lot produce 413,000 gallons of storm water for every inch of rain. Over the course of a year, it sends 240 pounds of nitrogen, 32 pounds of phosphorus and 5 pounds of zinc into the Mississippi.
Runoff causes rivers to erode and flood, alters stream channels and raises water temperatures. Runoff pollutants lower dissolved oxygen levels and reduce the diversity and abundance of fish and aquatic insect species.
Kind of ironic, isn't it, that you spend your days causing more water pollution than a new bridge ever will?
joe
11:16 am on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
If we built roads based on this reasoning we'd never build another road anywhere. Are you proposing that stop building roads?
Susan
7:07 am on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Changing the lift bridge schedule is not ludicrous! It is a very simple concept to understand that we don't have the back-ups here, other than mild rush hour back-ups, which any small city will have, during the winter. This fact alone should tell you that it is the lift bridge that is causing most of the traffic back-up.
And BTW, my suggestion is not an alternative to a new bridge, it just gives an option that will immediately help ease congestion, and cost almost nothing. Why is it that this won't happen? Because those that have riverboats on this stretch of river, and marinas and boats on the north side of the bridge have too much say in what happens in this town....apparently a few hundred people can not be inconvenienced by an hour or two, in order to ease the traffic back-ups for 10,000 commuters, and improve the "quality of life" for thousands of other residents in this town.
joe
11:07 am on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Opponents, do you people honestly think there is some magical “sensible” alternative waiting to be designed if only those silly, greedy, polluting, lying mega-bridge backers would be more reasonable. The requirements of the bridge have been debated for decades thanks to the Sierra club. The three lane bridge was debated in direct comparison to the four lane option and was found to be worse aesthetically and worse for the environment. The only reason that the 3-lane version is being revived now is to cause delay.
It turns out that big bridges cost big $$, and we can’t use a smaller bridge. Ask yourself: would three lanes really cost less than four? Would it be ¾ the cost because it’s ¾ the lanes? No. The cost is not proportional to the lanes. Most of the cost is not for the lanes but for adjacent items and environmental requirements that would cost the same whether the bride is 2, 3, 4, or 10 lanes.
As for saving the pristine river valley, you can’t be serious. Drive your Prius (if you are good enough to want to save our earth -- gas guzzling truck or SUV like mine if you choose to disregard the dangers of CO2) north out of Bayport past the prison, train yard, window plant, gigantic electric transmission lines, gigantic smokestack, trucks and loading docks, power transformers, parking lots, and many other commercial buildings. View the pristine shoreline you are fighting so hard to protect. Then consider the concept of credibility.
Shawn Hogendorf
11:48 am on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
McCollum and Taxpayers for Common Sense President Ryan Alexander shared a byline in this piece that ran in Roll Call today. What do you think? http://www.rollcall.com/issues/57_91/betty_mccollum_ryan_alexander_proposed_bridge_monument_waste-212143-1.html
Bob K
12:20 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
The piece is disingenuious and misleading on every level. First of all, the cost of the actual bridge (and the cost of ANY appropriately sized bridge that would span the width of the St. Croix at a height that causes the least environmental impact) is in the ballpark of $290 - $295 million -- NOT $700 million.
The comparison to the 35W bridge is apples and oranges. The $260 million spent on the 35W bridge was the cost of the bridge. The infrastructure on either side of that bridge was already there and there were no additional tens of millions spent on mitigation efforts or caused by delays due to lawsuits by the Sierra Club.
It's also blatantly misleading to portray the bridge as connecting a small town (Stillwater) with a tiny town (Houlton) when the fact is that the bridge is an interstate bridge within the biggest northern major metro area between Chicago and Seattle.
In the article, McCollum and Alexander say, "We agree with federal, state and local leaders who believe a new bridge across the St. Croix is needed."
Okay, so where's your plan? How much will your bridge cost and when will it be done? Will the added costs of further delays somehow not apply to your bridge? Will the necessary infrastructure and mitigation costs be 50 percent less? 25 percent less?
It's easy to get on your high horse and label it a boondoggle. Coming up with a realistic solution is a lot tougher.
Susan
7:20 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Even if you want to consider that the comparison should be $290 million (for just the bridge span) for this project, vs. $260 million for 35W, you have to admit that spending MORE money on a bridge that moves ONE EIGHTH the traffic, is out of line.
It is not misleading to say that this bridge connects to "almost" nowhere. Pretending as though this is some huge thoroughfare connecting two large metropolitan areas is not even close to the truth. On the Wisconsin side of this bridge, there is nothing more than a rural area, followed by a small town with a population of less than 3,000, followed by a rural area, and then another small town - population 8,000. Who are these people trying to kid when they say this is a major interstate freeway? Where does 64 go after New Richmond?
joe
12:06 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
McCollum paints a grim picture. But if it's such a bad idea why did the senate pass the bill unanimously? Why is public opinion largely in favor of the plan? And why are WI and MN senators, governors, and representatives from both parties largely in favor of the bridge? Is she that much smarter than everyone else?
Martin Greis
12:46 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Bob and Joe: The cost of the bridge not counting highway 36 upgrades has been estimated to be in the $700,000,000 range, and the redoing of Highway 36 is estimated at $200,000,000. I think your estimate of a little less than $300,000,000 is a pipe dream. The Senate also passed the Bridge to nowhere in Alaska because not enough people opposed it. Thank God we have Congresswoman McCollum stepping in for us, and yes, I think she is smarter than Bachmann, Franken Klocubar all put together! I think this huge bridge would be a great idea for those Wisconsin commuters to have a faster easier way to get over to Minnesota a take our jobs don't you? And it will get worse! If the bridge is built it will be kinda like BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME..I would rather see them drive 5 miles south and go across at 94.
joe
1:18 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
I agree with Bob. He sounds smarter that Martin.
Martin, does your cost also include upgrades to HWY 36 in Roseville like WP's? Your cost calculations are ridiculous and so is the idea of a lower cost bridge that would meet the transportation needs. Bob said it well. Look at the numbers instead of arguing your emotions. There is no cheaper alternative.
Here's an idea for all of the opponents. If you don't want a new bridge just be honest and say so. Quit faking that you are for a bridge if it can be done for less, then citing fake cost calculations. Your real desire is to have no new bridge and live with the congestion and pollution of the status quo, so just be honest about it.
Bob K
3:14 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Martin, you're just plain wrong. There are numerous sources, including the Star Tribune and MNDOT (http://www.dot.state.mn.us/metro/projects/stcroix/pdfs/status/CHAP%20152TotalProjCostEstimateFeb2011.pdf) that put the cost of the actual bridge itself at $292.1 million. Of the project total -- $633,400,000 -- Minnesota's potential share is $320 - 380 million -- NOT $700 million.
So let's agree to stop talking about feelings and stick to the facts. The only way it's going to cost Minnesotans $700 million is if McCollum and the "do nothing" crowd keep interfering, delaying the project even more and increasing costs.
Susan
3:42 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
As per your own source, Bob, the total project is estimated to cost over $600 million, and if we are honest, this will run over budget - the work that will have to be done on Hwy 36 for this project, and to upgrade to handle the additional traffic that MNDOT expects this bridge to bring, will be much higher than they have estimated here. It does not matter what the "span" of the bridge costs, the total cost of the project is exceedingly high, for the number of people it will serve.
Bob K
4:35 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Okay, let's be honest, starting with McCollum's and Alexander's dishonest comparison of the cost 35W replacement bridge to the cost of the entire St. Croix River crossing project.
The 35W bridge is 1900 feet long and 64 feet above the Mississippi. The proposed St. Croix bridge is more than 3000 feet long and 140 feet above the river (the "sensible," half-fast bridge option is just as long). Isn't it common sense that a much longer bridge is going to cost much more? The only thing the two bridges have in common is that they cross a river.
The reason bridge opponents use the comparison is to obfuscate the facts, suspend critical thinking and get people riled up emotionally.
Martin Greis
4:48 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Joe and Bob...perhaps you should've read my first post. I never said that the total cost of the bridge $700,000,000 plus would be paid by Minnesota alone. Please read my first post above from yesterday. And Joe you don't sound too smart either. Read the first line of your last post. You both sound like Wisconsin commuters...hahahaha..
joe
5:00 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Martin I'm not sure what's not smart about my last post, except that it show you and I don't think alike. And that opponents are not being consistent in their cost estimates. They say the 3-lane bridge costs 300 million dollars. They don't include any cost other than the structure of the span. Then they say the 4 lane bridge costs 700 million because of related costs, including upkeep to the freeway in Roseville MN. If you compare total cost of both bridges they will be close, up to 700 million. If you compare the cost of a 3 lane span to a 4 lane span they will be close. The difference is in related costs and environmental items that will not change no matter what design is built. I want the opponents to start being honest by comparing apples to apples. Then people will see that you won't be able to build a more "sensible" bridge for less money, and we can overcome that fictitious argument.
D. Knutson
6:13 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
@ Martin
Your comment about people having big enough boats to cause the bridge to be raised shows your true colors. I guess if the the showboats that bring business to town, and people on those boats with a desire to go north, should be told NO even if they are bringing money to Stillwater. I'm surprised you didn't say if the boats want to go under the bridge they should pay a tax, or let's raise taxes on boats that are too high to go under the bridge and use it to pay for the new bridge.
You take a shot at Joe & Bob being Wisconsin commuters, who cares? If it gets them home quicker and creates economic growth across the river that's great, more growth is more jobs, and more money in the valley.
Our current leader gave $500 million to Solyndra and that solar deal disappeared behind the clouds, GONE.
The bridge could provide private industry growth in the area, and even if it didn't, we would have a bridge to use versus an empty building and dumpsters full of discarded tax dollars.
Just a thought, but why not make it a toll bridge, $0.25 each way would add $1.6 million to the bottom line each year. You people that want more taxes hold be all over this approach...... FAIR SHARE, right?
Oh wait, your Sunday 12-pack would cost $0.50 more.... Bad idea..
Susan
7:31 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
D., by your logic, the $500 million to Solyndra, and the jobs it provided at the time, were a terrible waste of money, but $700 million to create jobs in a very rural area is okay? Or is it spending $70,000 per commuter to make their drive a little quicker the big benefit to tax payers? Where can I get on that kind of government hand out?
D. Knutson
9:39 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Susan
The $500,000 million came and went faster than the Sierra club can get to Stillwater. The impact Solyndra made on employment was negligible at best, but as long as you brought the jobs thing up, I'm thinking there will be more jobs per dollar spent on the the bridge than they had at Solyndra, and they will easily last longer too.
There's really just two choices, let the traffic count continue to grow, impact the Downtown and where you live even more, or do something about it and build a bridge. It has nothing to do with people getting home faster, but interestingly enough you too will probably get home quicker.
Susan
5:31 am on Wednesday, February 8, 2012
I understand the bridge will stay around longer than Solyndra, but my argument goes back to the large cost vs. benefit ratio. It is a huge price tag in proportion to those it will help. Regardless of where this money is spent, whether it is all on one bridge, or spread over several projects, it will create jobs. Spending nearly $700 million on a luxury item to create jobs, is not a good excuse.
Yes, I will absolutely appreciate the reduction in traffic near my home! I am not against a new bridge, I am just against the bluff to bluff mega bridge. It is too big for the area, and much too expensive. Of-course I will admit that I am not a bridge designer, nor an engineer, so I can not speak with great authority as to why all other bridge designs have been rejected by MNDOT, but from what I have read (and it's a lot - including from MNDOT), it seems we are just to take their word for it that this is the ONLY feasible design, while others (who are experts in the field) say otherwise.
Susan
4:57 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
I understand your point, but shouldn't the fact that this bridge project is nearly three times the cost of any other bridge the state has ever built, be a good indication that it may be out of scale?
I don't love the diagonal bridge either, but in a spend-wisely economy, this MNDOT proposed bridge IS a luxury item.
One more point: It has taken 80 years for the number of commuters using this bridge to grow to 9 or 10,000 daily. Do you really think that the population of one corner, of one county in Wisconsin is going to grow so much that it will justify needing a four-lane, freeway-speed bridge? I mean, where does 64 go on the other side of New Richmond?
Hudsoner
9:07 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Susan, St. Croix County is the fastest growing county in Wisconsin! It can be assumed that the growth will continue for a while (if one looks at what the different school districts have in their forecast). The bridge will not only be the feeder for 64, but also for 35.
Is there any other bridge in Minnesota that is 3000 feet long? If not, one cannot compare bridges with each other!
Randy Marsh
9:38 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Thanks for the laugh, Hudsoner. What does it mean to be the fastest growing county in Wisconsin? I assume that means the foreclosure rate is below 25 percent. Certainly all those housing developments are bursting at the seams. And before you start believing anything the school districts are shoveling you should know that South Washington County was led to believe they needed to build a high school and this has been proven unwarranted and unwise. I don't really care how long or big the bridge is, $700 million cannot be justified even if its use were to double in the next 50 years. You need to deal with the fact that all that land across the border is worth far more as farmland than housing and the sprawl has ended. This is practically indisputable at this point.
Susan
9:48 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Fastest growing county in Wisconsin? By what standards, and how does that affect the rest of the tax paying citizens in the two states? I am not necessarily disputing your statement, only questioning if it justifies such a large price tag. As I mentioned earlier, Somerset has a population of less than 3,000, New Richmond, just over 8,000. Because a good portion of St. Croix County is serviced by I94, you can not claim that all of St Croix County, or it's potential growth will benefit from this mega bridge.
Martin Greis
5:32 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Joe: I agree with Susan...she sounds smarter than you and Bob put together.
joe
5:35 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Martin don't to take it so hard. I didn't say you are not smart. Just that Bob sounds smarter. It's not personal. Susan sounds smart too but not as smart as Bob.
Martin Greis
5:38 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Joe: I would be willing to bet that you and Bob are cheese heads....hahahaha...
Bob K
8:29 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Sorry, Martin, you lose that bet. I've been a Stillwater resident for 20 years, I have a business here and I regularly patronize downtown restaurants, art galleries and other retailers. I can honestly say that the single worst aspect of living in Stillwater is the volume and noise of traffic, especially in the summer.
Most of that traffic is going THROUGH town, not coming to town. That huge negative would be eliminated by rerouting east-west traffic out of town while improving access from the south, which is where most tourist traffic comes from anyway.
Susan
6:04 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
You guys are too funny! One thing is clear, those that have done their research, and have made up their mind, are not going to be swayed by anything said here. I think we can all agree that $700 million dollars is a lot of money, and justifying it, for a relatively small number of people, is a hard thing to do.
For the record Bob, I was not trying to obfuscate anything, suspend any critical thinking, or get anyone riled up. On the contrary, I would hope that my thoughts on the subject would get people seeing the other side of the debate, or consider things they hadn't before considered. Not everyone has a maligning agenda.
Bruce
6:15 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
I am a staunch Democrat, but I can't back her on this. If redistricting puts me in the position of having to vote for her I don't know what I'll do.
Bob K
11:15 pm on Tuesday, February 7, 2012
Okay Susan, Randy, Martin, Bill and other bridge opponents. Do you agree with McCollum and "common sense" tax guy Alexander that a new bridge across the St. Croix is needed to replace the aging and deficient lift bridge?
If you do, there are certain costs that will apply to any new bridge. Right of way: $31.4 million. Mitigation: $26.2 million. Contingency/risk: $110 million. Engineering: $55 million. Minnesota approach: $65 million. Wisconsin approach: $38.4 million. Hwy. 36 at Oakgreen/Greeley intersection: $15.3 million. (MNDOT and WSDOT estimates)
So, without even adding the cost of any kind of bridge, we're already at $341.3 million. Even when you add the wildly underestimated initial cost of the Sensible Stillwater Bridge Partnership Alternative of $283 million, that brings the total cost to $624.3 million, conservatively. MNDOT said additional environmental review for the "sensible" bridge could add $10 - $15 million. But let's stick with $624.3 million.
Compare that to the estimated project total for the four-lane river crossing: $633.4 million. Does a mere $9.1 million difference make the current proposal less ridiculous? Or does it make the "sensible" alternative more ridiculous?
If you agree that we need a new bridge, then you have to face the reality that building a new 3,000-foot bridge -- three lanes or four -- over a river protected by miles of bureaucratic red tape is an expensive proposition.
Susan
5:54 pm on Wednesday, February 8, 2012
Bob, I have to admit, I had to think about this one for a while. Honestly, I don't know if these exact figures would be applied the same for any bridge that is built here, so I have forwarded your statement on to someone very close to the situation, and hope to hear back soon.
As for MNDOT, I have to say that I am disappointed that it doesn't seem that they have done much in the last 15 years since the NPS told them that this bridge design/location was in violation of the WSRA. It reminds me a bit of a child stomping their feet and refusing to do anything, because they have been told no. Now I am aware that there were some changes made, but if it were my company, we would have taken an in depth look at the problem/s and worked to inform everyone of all the information we had that showed that this was what we found to be the right answer. If every option had truly been studied to death, I would make sure to get that information out to everyone involved and interested. If we were still told no, we would work our very best to make sure we could get things as close to how the customer wanted it to be, providing of-course, that safety and our integrity standards could be met. Personally, I have not seen MNDOT do this...and I have looked.
William Pappas
6:29 am on Wednesday, February 8, 2012
Any argument that argues for a new bridge, like Hudsonser's, is in total agreement with those arguing for a smaller bridge. We do not disagree with the need for a new bridge. Hudsoner has been coming to Stillwater for years and he still sits in traffic for a half hour waiting to get into town. What's wrong with that picture or with Hudsoner's creative thinking. Hudsoner, you can run through the South Hill and reach Stillwater in just a minute or two longer than it takes on 95 and 36 from Bayport to Stillwater. It is like the city attorney lamenting is half hour commute to get from the city buildings to the South Hill. He's been living here for decades and he doesn't know enough to avoid the traffic bottlenecks? Disingenuous, folks. Besides, those reasons don't justify the 700 million dollar price tag or the enormity of this bridge or the necessity to imperil the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act. There is no possible way the megabridge piers (that litterally dwarf the 94 bridge in size, footprint and riverbed impact) can be considered attractive in the St. Croix Valley. Of course, the MNDOT siimulation is skilled in skewing perspective, so you can't understand it that way. Bob, you're right. This bridge will be an expensive proposition. But MNDOT needs to rethink it's priorities with regard to the bridge landings. They are the ones that have driven up sensible alternatives. They have chosen confrontation with their design, not the other way around!
joe
8:38 am on Wednesday, February 8, 2012
WP how can you still try to say that a smaller bridge is an option? I know you're not interested in facts, but the facts show that the three lane bridge would not be less expensive than the four lane bridge. Can you be a little more specific on what your hypothetical smaller bridge would look like? Would it have just two lanes? Would it be low to the river to require a lift to let boats under? That would keep the cost down. Would it use the proposed building site, or something different? Using Bob's numbers from the MnDOT, which costs would be saved?
Or maybe it's time for you to come out and admit that your goal is no bridge at all, just like the Sierra club.
Bob K
8:55 am on Wednesday, February 8, 2012
I don't understand this demonization of MNDOT. They have been tasked with building a river crossing to replace an aging lift bridge that costs more and more to repair and maintain. What possible motivation do they have for building the most expensive bridge possible?
Is that how they approach every bridge, roadway and interchange project? Or is this project different because they've had to deal with the WSRA and challenges from environmental groups that would prefer to see no bridges touching the bluffs or the riverbed?
Maybe MNDOT's motivation for building a bridge that is structurally sound with sufficient piers is that the 35W bridge collapse is still fresh in our memory. Poor design and cutting corners on that bridge caused the 1900-foot span to fall after only 42 years of use.
Maybe MNDOT's motivation is not hubris, but simply a desire to build a safe river crossing that will serve the transportation needs of the area into the next century.
Jim
7:34 pm on Wednesday, February 15, 2012
The builders of the Tacoma suspension bridge, Bechtel, indicate the Tacoma bridge cost about $1,500 per square foot. Given that number a suspension bridge over the narrows of the St Croix north of Stillwater would cost about $180,000,000 OR one hundred and eighty million dollars, 60 foot wide deck (4 traffic lanes and 10 feet for bikes and pedestrians), 2,000 feet long.
An additional 100 million for work on Manning and 96 and 95 and the solution comes in at $280,000,000 OR $420,000,000 less than the proposed bridge.
I'm 100% with McColumn on this. Bachman, Ellison and Klobachar are making a BIG mistake supporting a huge very expensive white elephant, bridge to nowhere.
Government, Don't make this BIG mistake, creating a huge eyesore on the lower St Croix, instead construct a work of art of a suspension bridge to be treasured by photographers and artists alike just north of Stillwater.
Do this RIGHT!