Editor Shawn Hogendorf firstname.lastname@example.org
Upbeat upstart Shelly Moore reflects on her losing campaign to replace state Sen. Sheila Harsdorf.
7:20 am on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
She is a disgraceful example of todays politics! The only problem with her losing, is now we have to deal with her teaching kids and spewing her liberal ideology to them.
7:40 am on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
I, for one, am particularly glad that your comment leads this thread, Ms. Zimmer. There's nothing like an immediate example of the tacky, mean-spiritedness that pervades the conservative dogma to remind us liberals that we lost this battle, but this is a long war.
This district may never see a democrat represent them in the state senate, but that is going to be an increasingly expensive privilege.
Hats off to you, Shelly Moore. You showed something dear Shiela does not: courage.
10:16 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
Thank you, Dan BV.
10:51 am on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
Thank you Shelly and all the other supporters and workers in your campaign. It has raised awareness for most of us who have never been politically active. We will continue to fight for the middle class and our future.
10:45 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
I'm with you, Lori.
11:12 am on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
Ha ha, fun to see all the whinning libs. First point to make is the fact that I am not a MS., but a MR. Second point, it is all of the left wing nuts in Wisconsin who have who bred the "hate" ideology with this BS recall election. All it did was waste taxpayer money, and took time away from issues that need to be dealt with. I believe anyone who signed the recall petition for Sheila should be stuck with the bill this cost rather than having state taxpayers pay for it. You wanted it, you should pay for it.
Regarding hate...... isn't that what Shelly Moore reminded everyone with her "we breathe union" speech in Madison????? Deal with the fact that St. Croix county and the Hudson area lean to the right politically, and we will not be bullied by Union and liberal THUGS!!! This BS election proved once again, that Wisconsin doesn't want the left wing agenda, if you want that, move to Minnesota or the left coast.
12:27 pm on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
Jamie -- "whining libs" "thugs" "bullies", etc. That's the language that started the demonizing of public workers. Congratulations, it worked. Here's my story:
I do wish people would stop insinuating that public workers aren't included in the "taxpayers" chatter. I'm not a teacher, but I do work for the county as clerical support staff. The "small contributions" to the pension fund equals hundreds of dollars each MONTH out of each and every public worker's paycheck -- state, county, city, village and townships alike. And that's not including all the increased health insurance costs we've already been hit with -- with promises of more to come later this year. My husband (who works in manufacturing) had his work hours reduced last year, which meant a reduction in his monthly take-home pay of $400.
With all the increased costs of gas, heating, food, etc., we're losing ground FAST. We're struggling right now, just like many, many others. That's what I don't get about this whole thing. Public employees were demonized at the outset, but nobody wants to hear that. Nobody seems to want to really look at what the effects will be to local businesses when these families have taken such a great hit to their incomes.
When I'd hear Walker or Harsdorf talk about how they saved "taxpayers" $736 in property taxes over two years, it made me sick to my stomach. I look at my kids and think, what's next?
10:24 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
If it were possible to "assign bills," then I believe it would be the Republican party which would need be billed for what it cost to make this election last an extra three weeks by putting a "fake democrat" on the primary election. The recall elections could have been over on July 19.
11:47 am on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
Hudsoner - How is the ideology of the left different from that on the right. Both say the other HATES. Just because you are on the left does not give your side a pass.
12:28 pm on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
I am actually in the middle, but was pushed to become leaning left because of the events in Wisconsin!
I have yet to see any hate speech/writing of the left side as I was/am able to hear and read from the right
1:10 pm on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
As a differentiation of Left from Right, I will continue to say that the Right believes that elected officials represent taxpayers and the Left believes that elected officals represent citizens.
The distinction is not subtle.
And there is no reference in any consititution that defines "taxpayer" as having any greater representation. Harsdorf said every time "I represent the taxpayers of my district," and she and her Republican cohort are dead wrong every time they make that claim.
This is basic American civics.
And dare I say - it's something a school teacher would know.
1:14 pm on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
Spot on, Dan.
10:26 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
Thank you again, Dan.
1:22 pm on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
A larger point would be that all citizens that earn income should pay income taxes. If there isn't any skin in the game, it is easier to just say raise taxes. I think the left thinks that there is an endless supply of taxpayer money. not even close my friends.
1:31 pm on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
I can already see that's next in the ALEC playbook, given the many, many similar posts I've seen. It's important to demonize the working poor first as tax scofflaws. Then whip the base up with hate messaging about them, repeating the same phrases over and over again. Then after they're good and fired up, introduce legislation and tax changes that only effect that particular target. After all, the job creators need to keep all their profits. The elected Republicans then look like heroes to their base for smashing down those nasty, thuggish working poor tax scofflaws. Coming soon to statehouses everywhere. It's already in the works.
1:34 pm on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
Like --- a lot! To Eagle that is.
2:26 pm on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
I am not demonizing anyone. I am just saying that everyone should have some tax liability. It could be 5%. I am not a rich person, but I believe they are the ones being demonized by those on the left. Terms like pay their fair share are just dumb. Why should success be demonized? What exactly is a fair share for a rich person compared to a poor persone not paying a share? What should the tax on the rich (200,000 +) be?
6:36 am on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Two-thirds of corporations in Wisconsin didn't pay taxes, either. Shouldn't they, too?
5:39 pm on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
I've always wanted to take a short trip to Schaumburg, IL for a bit of cultural stimulation. I think while I'm down there, I'll investigate the possibility of loading this diorama onto a $1/2 Million bus and bringing it up for a short tour to Hudson, WI. "Many museum visitors found the worldview of the middle class—with its reliance on education, stable employment, and ample pensions—difficult to comprehend. " It sounds like a lot of "conservative" Patch contributors have be made the pilgrimage before me.
5:49 pm on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
I love how libs have the depth of knowledge to argue a point!! Attack my name as being non-gender specific, HAHAHA!!!! As if that will bother me!! I am confident enough in my masculinity to be able to handle your childish insults. At least I have the confidence to list my name, and not hide behind some vague moniker, "Hudsoner"!!
As for this BS from KT about trying to make everyone feel sorry for you. You made the choice to work in gov't, your husband made the choice to work in the manufacturing sector. I have no problem contributing my fair share of taxes, but mine shouldn't be disproportionate than gov't workers. THAT INCLUDES TEACHERS!!! Why should gov't workers get a pass on contributing the same amount on their benefits while the rest of us cover the majority. The people of Wisconsin spoke, AGAIN, enough is enough. The free meal ticket is over, if you can't make ends meet, go do something else. I sacrificed for 6 1/2 years to get a college education that has served me well, because I busted my ass. If everyone did the same there would be no issue. And don't give me the arguement that you didn't have the opportunity, because I will show you examples where people made difficult decisions to make sure they got that education. If you do have an education, and you decided to go into a field that doesn't pay large sums of money, thats your problem. If anyone would like I have no problem meeting to debate any of these issues in person.
11:09 pm on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
Jamie, I work in private industry and I don't contribute a red cent to my pension fund. My employer contributes 100 percent and the do an additional match to what I contribute to my 401k and they pay profit sharing and occasionally give us Dilly bars and pizza.
How did you sacrifice for 6 1/2 years to get a college education? I paid my way through college and basically didn't get a penny from my parents for college. I don't call that a sacrifice. I call it getting a college education. I paid for my own beer, cigarettes, etc. too.
Why are you ripping on people who work in public education, because they "decided to go into a field that doesn't pay large sums of money"? I guess you are confusing me by complaining that teachers don't get paid much and telling us "the free meal ticket is over." What exactly is this "free meal?"
6:46 am on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Wow, Jamie. Nice. I'm giving you an example of my own personal situation so you might possibly understand the effects to real people. The fact is workers everywhere are losing ground -- public and private -- as corporations are making record profits.
And let me clarify for you that, according to a wage study completed but not implemented by our county's elected officials, the workers in our county were already way behind in their overall salary + benefits package. So on top of already being seriously lagging, we were just given a 6% wage cut.
I work for a living and like my job. My wages shouldn't be described as a "free meal ticket." When are you going to stop buying into this garbage that workers are the problem? Do some critical thinking, Jamie.
10:01 am on Thursday, August 11, 2011
You say it! My employment life was (I am retired now, but worked for 33 years for the same company) very similar to yours!. We might even speak about the same employer?.
However, I had to suffer somewhat during college, because I did not have enough funds and time to party as much as I wanted. Can one call this a sacrifice?
And I have yet to meet a teacher who had a free ride during college, or has a free ride now. They have to work many hours for a rather low pay in relation to their education, and have to be rather idealistic to be willing to put up daily (I believe most of them see 150 to 160 kids a day) with other peoples kids in puberty! I am still trying to see the free meal they get. The fairy tale that they did get free health insurance and free pension is nothing but a fairy tale! I can recall the time when Tomy Tompson set up the qualified bargain law. Since that time teachers could not get more than, I believe, 3% raise, and if insurance went up, it was part of those 3%. With other words, the teachers paid all the time for their benefits! Where is the "free meal" Jamie is talking about?
1:51 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
I work in private industry as well! In fact I work for a private company, My employer contributes a portion to the pension fund, employees contribute some. The also match up to a certain percentage into my 401k, as well as profit sharing.
However, 4 years ago, they decided to move us from a fully covered health plan to a high deductible health plan. I pay the first $5000 out of my own pocket, AFTER TAXES, for medical expenses. I have a child with diabetes, that $5000 is eaten up in the first 3 months of the year on supplies and doctors visits. I don't get a cushy health insurance plan, until AFTER I pay my $5000.
As for sacrificing, I paid for my college BY MYSELF!!! Then on top of it, i selected a major that required not book time, but LOTS AND LOTS, of lab time, a lot of personal expense, and far to many sleepless nights. I wasn't able to afford beer and cigarettes, because I was covering my education expense. I agree that many others have done the same thing. The point being, we've worked our asses off to gain that education and get a good job that pays well, so my question is, why should I pay for more for someone elses health care and other benefits then they pay? Where is the "shared scrifice" that libs talk about. Ohh, that only applies to "the rich and super rich" right?
Teachers and public employees are being asked to pay the same amounts as the rest of the working class
8:16 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Jamie -- Maybe you're too young to remember the days when the middle class was actually the middle class. There was a time when working people could actually make it on one salary to pay their mortgage, have health insurance, have a pension and put their children through college. Continuing the trend of knocking workers' wages and benefits doesn't help anyone, from business owner on up! Can't you see we're all on the same side? It's the middle class that truly generates demand. You can't get around that. (And please, as an aside, try to take your hate for the "libs" out of your mind, think about this and then respond.) Please.
5:50 pm on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
Hudsoner, would like to come insult me yourself. I can be found under my name in the phone book!!
6:52 pm on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
Don't just give up... There is something that isn't right about this election process!
I voted at the government center. When I voted (having actually cast my ballot) at 3:00 I was # 1025... Although after waiting in the wrong line I was told I was voter 560-something. At the right line I was 680-something. If the information about the absentee ballots being counted by noon, the numbers aren't adding up!
9:16 pm on Wednesday, August 10, 2011
Give it up Moore supporters. You arent fooling the people of Wisconsin any longer. Public Unions must eather get in the real world with the rest of us or they will not exist much longer. I attended the Teaparty rally on Friday; you Moore people acted like a bunch of spoiled children not getting they're way. WHAAAA. Thank you Gov Walker. When will you and your Unions start burning things up like in Great Briton; Not long Im sure. In case you havent noticed Shelly Moore got CRUSHED!!!!!
1:00 am on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Let's keep the comments clean. No personal attacks. Seriously. All of you.
3:14 am on Thursday, August 11, 2011
"The free meal ticket is over, if you can't make ends meet, go do something else. I sacrificed for 6 1/2 years to get a college education that has served me well, because I busted my ass. If everyone did the same there would be no issue. And don't give me the arguement that you didn't have the opportunity, because I will show you examples where people made difficult decisions to make sure they got that education. If you do have an education, and you decided to go into a field that doesn't pay large sums of money, thats your problem."
Sounds like a big WHAAAAA from you! You think you're the only one who worked hard to get an education? WHAAAAA
5:40 am on Thursday, August 11, 2011
I am an independent who voted democrat in this election. I voted that way because I am tired of the righteous self centeredness of the republicans. I voted for Sheila in the past. It will never happen again. Her poor performance at the RF breakfast debate identified her as mediocre at best. Congrats Republicans! I am now more affiliated with the Democrats than with you! I can hardly wait until all the entitlements get cut back and you all start to whine! Do we really need medicare, badgercare, farm subsidies, and all the other free money? Apparently, Republicans don't think so. Shelly was trying to swim up stream. Always a difficult proposition. I admire her for her courage. I admire the 14 democrats for standing out against something they didn't believe in. Republican behavior is shameful in its self-centeredness! May all you Republicans get what you think you wish for!
6:33 am on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Next up on the ALEC agenda:
Keep chatting about the working poor as tax scofflaws. The state will need more revenue soon, and since the corporate-sponsored ALEC degenerates can't be expected to chip in, they'll demonize the working poor so when ALEC gives Republican legislators the language needed to increase the burden on the working poor, Republican voters will bless them with their votes. Absolute corruption.
8:23 am on Thursday, August 11, 2011
KTinWI, do you have teh supporting documentation that says 2/3rds of corporations did not pay taxes?
Still looking for answers to how much rich people should pay in taxes? Looking for a percentage.
11:57 am on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Eagle, do you have supporting documentation that 1/2 of the new jobs created in the U.S. in the last month were in WI, as Sheila Harsdorf stated in the debate and has repeated and repeated. Don't bother with MacIver Institute reports, I asked for documentation not Koch Brother Propaganda. You have to believe in the tooth fairy if you think this is true.
9:13 am on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Here is a link that explains the 2/3 number. What is missing in the number is that not all corporations have a profit to have a tax liability, but all corporations are included in the 2/3 number.
4:41 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Also don't forget that any corporations with employees are paying into SS and medicare whether they make money or not.
8:24 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
And ALL employees are also paying into ss and medicare, mainstreet. Thank you for following up on your own research, Eagle, as I was at work.
Ealge -- if 2/3 of corporations (who can afford to pay tax pros to find loopholes) aren't paying any taxes, what's your problem with the 50% of the working poor (which is the figure I've heard from the Republican Party) not having tax liabilities? You want to squeeze some more from the working poor?
9:09 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
KT, I don't get your point about all of us paying into SS and medicare? My point was that any corporation with employees is paying taxes because they are paying into SS and medicare, no matter what your 2/3 thing says. Are you saying all employees shouldn't pay into SS and medicare?
4:27 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
No. Actually, my point is the same as yours. All employees are paying into SS and Medicare, too. So that would make all employees taxpayers, too.
9:34 am on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Eagle, I am not a fan of KTin WI, but it is true. Here is the link. http://tinyurl.com/3auosgb On the surface it is mostly true, but reading the whole article sheds some light on the question marks that surround it. But it is mostly true. KTinWI also does not mention that this has been a long time trend, all while the Democrats contorlled everything in WI and they did nothing, so to blame on one party or another is bit hypocritical. On the other hand, business' do not pay taxes, there customers pay those taxes for them. The more you raise taxes, the more the consumer pays. And that added cost on that item at Target does not care what income bracket your in, you buy it, part of that money goes to cover income taxes paid by the manufacturer and seller! Your question on how much rich people should pay will never be answered, truthfully. KTinWI fascination with ALEC is as much as with Koch. Perhaps we need to start scrutinizing CAP (Center for American Progress) a little more and see what they are doing in regards to trying to shape policy in Washington.
8:26 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Sorry you're not a fan of mine. And ALEC is a seriously corrupt problem.
3:43 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
CAP = George Soros = weaker America = Socialist agenda = current goal of administration based on actions being taken.
TH3, nice try trying to change the subject. I see that 2/3rds of corporations do not pay taxes, but those that make a profit do pay them. I personally do not think they should pay any as that cost is past through in the prices charged.
8:27 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
How much "profIt" do the working poor make, Eagle? Yes, by all means, let's attack the working poor.
3:47 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Your benefits are diminishing. You can correlate diminishing wages and benefits with the decline in wages and benefits. Instead of considering unionizing you profession, you attack the few left who still have decent benefits. This is the classic objective of the Super Rich, get workers to fight against workers for the crumbs while they steal billions for themselves. Rather than attacking others with benefits, you should be fighting for better ones for yourself. In short. You have the wrong boogieman.
4:16 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
My benefits aren't diminishing, my wages aren't diminishing. I have responsibilities, thats the way I look at it. The extra $5000 I have to pay because of the HDHP, just means I can't go buy a BMW or Mercedes for another couple years! As for unionizing, there is a moronic statement...... why would I want someone elses performance to have any bearing on how much I get in pay and benefits????? I want to be paid based on the merits of my work and performance. If I am a valuable employee, I expect to be compenstated as much. If the company is unwilling to do that, i'll go work for another company. I'm confident in that because I have a skill that companies want, one I was trained to utilize in college!
8:30 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Good for you, Jamie, again. Enjoy your rides in your BMW or Mercedes. But it won't last for much longer. The "demand" side of the supply & demand equation means people need to earn a decent wage and have enough money to buy whatever it is you're selling.
7:54 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
KT you are right, it won't last much longer if the Liberal left continues to spend like drunken sailors! Your explanation of the demand side, is exactly the democratic (socialized) viewpoint that is what is runing this country.
Demand is wanting a product or service that isn't currently meeting your expectations. Supply is deciphering what that consumer wants and providing it. Money has no point being in the discussion. If you as a supplier create demand, people will pay for the product or service.
I believe you need to look up the basics of economics and business before you tell people to look up critical thinking.
The reason there will be no money, is because the liberal left will have spent it all on gov't waste! (Obamacare, stimulus, expansion of gov't as a whole) Of course they will reduce our military spending!
8:01 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
You said it yourself, Jamie. People will "pay for the product or service." Keep driving down wages while the cost of living skyrockets and there's no money left for your customers to spend. Wages do matter and money is a factor.
4:05 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
See Jamie's earlier comment. At times I don't know where the appropriate place is to respond. You can disagree with me but it was not my intention to change the topic. I take responsibility for that when I do, but that is not the case here.
4:12 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Whoever you are, you are a slave to a liberal ideology that is driving this country straight into the ground!! Thank God, I'm in a state that may end up there last as long as Walker is in control!
8:18 pm on Friday, August 12, 2011
JZ: Are you sure it's the liberal ideology that is driving the country into the ground? I believe it's the free-market capitalists who have spent the last four decades sending the good, family-raising jobs overseas and working to create a work-world of low-wage temps with no pension, no healthcare, no vacation. These would be the same capitalists hiring the illegals to work at the packing plant to work for low wages at formerly, high paying union jobs that supported families and sent lower middle class kids to college.
Let's not forget those bankers and lenders who spent the last decade borrowing money to people to built the nightmare homes. People with bad credit rating, nothing to pay down, etc. Of course, now that millions of those people have lost their houses and jobs they can turn to payday lenders when there's too much week for their unemployment check to cover. Fortunately, the payday lenders will gladly borrow you food and gas money for a 573 percent interest charge.
Let's not forget that a significant portion of our national debt comes from:
1. Iraq war
2. Afghanistan war
3 2001 and 2003 Bush tax cuts
Perhaps you could explain how the liberal ideology is driving this country into the ground.
4:21 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Mike, Is there any way to keep the video from automatically playing every time I open this thread. The shrill shrieking is giving me goose bumps!
4:27 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Mike - I think for once there's a bi-partisan agreement about that feature. When there were clips of Walker that did that, my cats fled the room every time.
Of course, I didn't actually mind the effect it had on the cats per se, but still...
7:05 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
I'm not a fan of the autoplay videos either. I've raised your complaints to the tech folks. They are pretty busy, though, and that feature is low on the priority list.
10:11 pm on Thursday, August 11, 2011
Jamie, I've been following you comments and find them interesting. I've just a bit confused as to what your point is. Here are the two major points I am reading from your comments:
1. Republicans/conservatives good; Democrats/liberals bad.
2. Private sector jobs good; public sector jobs bad.
Are there additional points I'm missing?
Would it solve all our problems if:
1. Everyone became a conservative Republican and thought like you
2. We eliminated all public jobs and only had private sector jobs
7:47 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
Funny, I don't ever actually recall saying I was a republican?? Here are my points, The current democratic mindset is everyone should share everything (socialism). Why on Earth should one person have more than another (the demonization of hard work and being successful)! That is exactly what Obama, Shelly Moore, and all gov't workers that I've argued with believe.
Do I believe all public sector jobs are bad, no of course not, I have the utmost respect for our military (Which those on the left stab in the back when possible). Despite their horribly bad judgement during the state budget debate, I am actually very happy with the quality of education my child has received, especially in Hudson. I would much rather see property taxes go away, and turn our schools into open enrollment and pay for that myself. Then I would get to decide what kind of education my child gets. Unfortunately thats no the way the system works. However, I do have to admit that my childs first teacher was very good, and I appreciate what it is she has done to help my child learn. That doesn't mean I want to pay more in taxes to cover her benefits which are better than my own.
As to your 2nd set of points, If everyone believed in the conservative model, hell yes things would be much better!!! We certainly could eliminate MANY public jobs and have that work done by private contractors that would cost us (taxpayers) much less. There's a novel thought reduce gov't, and create more private sector jobs?
7:53 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
Which public sector jobs do you want to privatize, Jamie?
8:19 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
Before I answer this let me ask you, what do you believe the role of gov't is? Based on your reactions to my comments, I believe you think it is to provide jobs and services to anyone and everyone. Am I wrong?
8:32 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
Actually, that's a really good question, Jamie, and I've never truly thought about it. But I will today during my 5-hour road trip and get back to you. I do wish you wouldn't feel the need to end each post with some type of insult, though. Of course I don't think the role of gov't is to provide jobs and services to anyone and everyone. I don't know of another person who holds that belief, either.
I am honestly curious about what jobs you'd privatize, though.
9:31 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
Jamie: "Republican" is different than "republican." "Democratic" is different than "democratic." It's a connotative technically that is important to consider in discussion concerning politics.
I don't hear the hard work demonization you preach of. I hear more of a call for fair taxation.
Have you actually argued with Obama, Moore and gov't workers. You must have some good connections to argue with Obama.
When you talk about open enrollment and paying for that yourself, should I assume that everybody would individually pay for the education of their children?
Should public sector workers make the same, more or less than private sector workers? Apparently, the military pays private contracts significantly more to do the same job as enlistees.
What conservative model are you talking about? Are you talking about the Ayn Rand-libertarian model of personal and business freedom or the Chirstian-conservative model that ta\ramples on individual freedom? Maybe you mean the Robert LaFollette progressive republican model? Maybe you mean the Abe Lincoln model of compromise and funding big government infrastructure projects like the transcontinental railroad?
W. Bush was a conservative and he oversaw one of the largest expansion of government ever. Under the so-called "socialism" of Obama, we have seen a large contraction of government.
Of course the federal, state, county, local, school district, etc. components of government. Please supply more detail.
10:35 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
JPN, Whats your source for government contracting under Obama? That's a pretty astounding claim and I would be interested in reading the source.
1:13 pm on Friday, August 12, 2011
Private sector jobs v. public sector jobs:
Does this work for you?
Here's a good summary...
During the Bush presidency, net total employment went up by 1.08 million jobs. So far, during the Obama presidency, total employment has been reduced by 3.3 million jobs.
Under Bush, private employment shrank by 673,000 jobs, federal employment grew by 50,000 jobs, and government employment grew by 1,753,000 jobs.
Under Obama, the private sector has shed some 2.9 million jobs while the federal government has grown by 40,000 (after growing massively, the federal workforce shrank throughout the summer). Total government jobs, however, shrank by 357,000 jobs, mainly because of cuts at the state and local levels.
1:44 pm on Friday, August 12, 2011
JPN, not trying to argue with you. I was only looking for some back up to your statement "Under the so-called "socialism" of Obama, we have seen a large contraction of government." The Politifact link does show that federal employment has increased under Obama, which is what I thought. As for a general contraction of all government, you're probably right, but that is not to Obama's credit as you implied. Hopefully state/local governments will continue to shrink and we get the Federal Government on board next.
2:46 pm on Friday, August 12, 2011
mianstreet, since Jamie was not breaking down government into separate buckets, I went with the big number. Lumping federal, state and local together shows that the size of government has decreased under Obama. I don't believe I gave Obama credit for the contraction of government. I'm just saying what's happened since he took office.
I try to stay away from giving any politicians credit for anything that happens. If I point out that Clinton was the last president to provide us with surpluses, a conversative with jump in and give the credit to Newt and the conservatives. Likewise, the TEA Party started blaming Obama for the debt and deficit that day after he was sworn into office.
If you what to argue with me, I'm fine with that. I'd rather have an intelligent discussion about the problems and issues facing our nation and the world and not pretend that the right or left have all the answers. There are a lot of variables in the big, long-term problems we are facing and, unfortunately, politicians are responsbile for some of those problems but they don't look at the longview. Theyt live in the election cycle.
3:39 pm on Friday, August 12, 2011
Like I said I wasn't trying to argue, just get the facts behind you're statement. As for Clinton and Newt - Lets not forget $10 a barrel oil at the time. That will make any politician look like a genius :)
10:31 pm on Saturday, August 13, 2011
Mainstreet, lets not forget the Clinton signed NAFTA and it created that giant sucking sound predicted by Ross Perot.
9:16 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
Jamie : "I do have to admit that my childs first teacher was very good, and I appreciate what it is she has done to help my child learn. That doesn't mean I want to pay more in taxes to cover her benefits which are better than my own."
So Jamie, I guess that means you are against rewards for hard work and merit pay.
I really like the fine example the officers at M & I Bank give our children to inspire them to achieve through work hard.
Achievement that deserve financial reward.The Private Sector model.
1.M & I takes 2 million dollars from the Government Bank Bailout.
2.They perform poorly for 2 consecutive years with large losses in revenue.
3.They get bought out by the Bank of Montreal ( failing banks must have some hidden value somewhere )
4 Bank Officers are rewarded for their hard work to the tune of $65 million dollars in Golden Parachutes.
Public Sector model: Teachers
1.Teachers do a good enough job to even please you, a critic of people who "steal from their neigbors"
in public sector jobs.
2.You give them a token nod of recognition that just maybe they worked hard to help educate your child.
3. You would rather pay no taxes to Teachers but bailing out Banks is OK. ( It must be OK with you since
I havn't heard any criticism of banks in your comments here on the Patch.
4.Just because Teachers do a good job, that's no reason to get carried away and reward them financially.
After all it's "my" money that pays them.
10:21 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
No problem paying good teachers what they are worth. Unfortunately for those good teachers, they have a union that says otherwise. You will be paid on years of service and educational level accomplished. Once you get past being last one in, first one out, all you have to look forward to is your steps and lanes for pay increases. Let us pay good teachers awesome wages and let the rest go. But they think that collectivism is better than individualism, otherwise they would end there union and negotiate on thier own. M & I bank must be your whooping boy, because that is all you ever write about. It is a shame that we bailed out any bank, so I agree whole heartedly with you in regards to that Democrat passed bank bailout of 2008 that Bush did not Veto. Then again, that was a bi partisan affair, just like NCLB, Iraq, afghanistan, Libya...wait, they didn't give authorization on Libya. I need to focus, sorry about that. Great teachers are under paid, most teachers are over paid. Class starts at 830, ends at 330, with half hour lunch and two 45 minute activities per day out of the there classroom for a total of 178 school days. That is 5.5 hours of in the class room time in elementary. Granted, I would not want to take care of other peoples entitled, snot nosed brats. Regardless, Government would not exist with business (in a free market experience) and business would not be here without government. Both need each other, we just have to figure the balance.
10:32 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
When you are part of a public sector union there are no raises based on merits, thats the first crack in your liberal arguement. The very nature of a union is socialism. The same for everyone!
And once again your over the top liberal banter suggests that I wanted the banks to be bailed out! I am a conservative, my solution would have been to let the weak banks fail, and to provide the option to support the stronger financial institutions(Free market system). Keep in mind is was the Reid/Pelosi congress that bailed out those banks. Yes Bush signed, his biggest mistake as president, but he did what the democrats asked for.
Again keep in mind about the "Golden Parachutes" as much as you don't like them, it's the companies BoD that determines those, don't blame the people receiving them. They took a job and accepted those terms. You can not like the job they did, but thats why they were let go, golden parachute or not.
You are right, I would rather pay no taxes to teachers, I would rather we privatize the school system, and each family pays for their childs education. I want to choose who my child gets for a teacher. That way if my child doesn't learn anything or is failing, I have only me to blame for choosing a bad teacher. Who gets the blame when our nations education system is far behind the industrialized nations of the world? Certainly not the teachers. Merit based pay, not union negotiated contracts!
9:17 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
I think this fits perfectly well with JPN's
summary of your world view.
"2. Private sector jobs good; public sector jobs bad."
It's so simple why can't liberal scum bags like me get it?
9:43 am on Friday, August 12, 2011
Why are you confusing me and Jamie further by looking for nuances between "Republicans". When one says " Republican" shouldn't it be understood that it means " Not Liberal scum".
1:21 pm on Friday, August 12, 2011
Let me try and simplify the debate here:
The Democrats/liberals believe it is important to count and include all the colors of the rainbow in the debate. They defend their position like a herd of cats.
The Republican/conservatives believe we should get rid of the color black and just use the color white. They defend their position like a wolf pack.
Keep in mind, just because Jamie's worldview doesn't agree with your worldview, doesn't mean he's wrong or have a legitimate argument.
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