Editor Shawn Hogendorf email@example.com
Democratic state senate candidate Shelly Moore introduces herself to Hudson Patch.
Shortly after announcing her candidacy, Democratic state senate candidate Shelly Moore introduces herself to Hudson Patch.
8:23 pm on Tuesday, May 3, 2011
I am sure that she is a good teacher.....but....she is also a WEAC zealot. We don't need union reps in our legislature, we need people that represent our needs and abilities to pay taxes,
8:55 pm on Tuesday, May 3, 2011
Interesting! I always thought that teachers are also taxpayers! When was it that they were allowed to stop paying taxes? And why is it that she is a WEAC zealot? Or are all teachers zealots? Why would we trust them to basically raise our children? As far as I know, she was laid off earlier this year, how can she be a union rep (and why are they bad? I have never been a union member and will not plan to become one. You seem to know a lot about unions, can you enlighten me a little?
9:29 pm on Tuesday, May 3, 2011
Don, what is a "WEAC zealot?" Why wouldn't we need union members in our legislature? Knudson runs a business. John Murtha runs a business. Senators Ron Johnson and Herb Kohl run businesses. Governor Walker and Sheila Harsdorf are career politicians who have spent the majority of the adult life receiving a paycheck that comes from the public. From the government classes I took long ago, I remember that we'd like to get a mix of voices representing us.
This is a definition of zealot: "one who is zealous, one who is full of zeal for his own specific beliefs or objectives, usually in the negative sense of being too passionate."
Synonyms for zealot are activist, diehard, extremist, fanatic, fiend, maniac, militant, nut, radical. An antonym for zealot is moderate.
Aren't most politicians zealots? Can you name me any elected moderates in Madison?
12:57 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Citizen Don Van:
Now since Shelly is unqualified to be an elected representative because she is a working person and a union member, does that mean that any business person is unqualified because they would be voting on issues and actions that would benefit them at the expense of working people? Well of course not, and in fact it is about time that we had a state senator that represents the special interest of the majority of the citizens in this district who are working people, parents of students in public schools, teachers, butchers, bakers and candlestickmakers. You aren't gunna get Wlaker-Hardsdorf any votes by using the boogieman of union "zealot". Typical phony conservative argument...as opposed to the REAL conservative who believes that all people should be represented.
8:36 pm on Tuesday, May 3, 2011
Yes, she has it, and we need more of Shelly Moore! I think Shelly will be a great State Senator and will represent district 10 very well. Unlike the present Senator who is outright lying to us in her pamphlets she sends around!
10:27 pm on Tuesday, May 3, 2011
Some words from another "zealot":
"The sole and basic source of our strength is the solidarity of workers, peasants and the intelligentsia, the solidarity of the nation, the solidarity of people who seek to live in dignity, truth, and in harmony with their conscience."
10:52 pm on Tuesday, May 3, 2011
As I always say: you cannot trust them union thugs! Who would want to live a life that this lech guy lines out! Isn't it better to be serves of the oligarchy?
11:03 pm on Tuesday, May 3, 2011
Way to go Shelly! I think you will be a GREAT voice of reason in Madison during these dividing times. I'm so excited for the chance at change!
11:20 pm on Tuesday, May 3, 2011
I fear this is a misstep on the part of the Democrats. I have no doubt that Shelley Moore is a quality person and a dedicated teacher. I have no doubt that she could represent the 10th District better than the current occupant of that seat. BUT...this is going to be a battle for the independent voters out there, some of whom are willing to listen to the message: "What more proof do you need that the Democratic Party is owned by WEAC?" Her union bona fides are impeccable, but I think that's just what the Republicans have been hoping for. Personally, I already love her message, but I'm hoping she'll go out of her way to preach beyond the choir. A recall election is an uphill battle to begin with and I fear Shelly's union credentials will make that hill even steeper.
7:31 am on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Time will tell whether or not this is a mistake. I wonder how many independents will show up to vote. You can bet the Republicans will be littering your mailbox with nasty grams about the "outsiders", etc.
Teachers with connections to the unions seem to be a favored choice in western Wisconsin. In 2008, Chris Buckle of Hammand ran against John Murtha in the 29th Assembly race. Kerry Kittle of New Richmond ran against Murtha in 2006. Even though the Assembly job is considered a part-time job and Kittle and Buckle would have been able to arrange their schedule to keep their teaching positions (leave of absence, etc.), the Republicans nasty-grammed Kittle and Buckle as double-dippers.
Apparently, the fact that Murtha runs a full-time business is not considered double-dipping.
Getting the recall signatures was the easy part. Getting elected will be the hard, ugly part.
8:06 am on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Teachers always have connection to unions, because all schools are unionized. That is not a bad thing, because that can provide some extra resources for a candidate. The Rep candidates don't need those resources, they have all they need from big money!
Why should teacher be a bad choice. Teachers used to be our ideals, every kid has at least one teacher she loves dearly. Why couldn't Shelly be this teacher for us? We, as a people have to restore the good image of teachers again. They are not the villains that leach on our pockets. They are dedicated persons that we trust to educate (and babysit) our children. They do their best to bring the future of this country up to speed. For centuries, this country was proud of their teachers, because they caused the beginnings of the achievements we reached. And all of a sudden they are a burden? Are we all getting Alzheimer's and forget how well teachers did for us?
It will be our job to help Shelly to counter the nasty attacks. and point things out (like you did in the above) if they come up. We have to be the mouth, hands and feet for Shelly!
12:05 am on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Today I had the privilege of meeting Shelly Moore. I was impressed with her attitude about our states future. I look forward to helping her in any way. I said I would like to meet the future Senator.
Shelly Moore is what we need, someone who cares.
I am an Independent Voter and am a Veteran.
8:26 am on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Lech, I heartily agree with all of your descriptions of teachers' selfless service to our kids, families and communities. You'll find no bigger fan than I am when it comes to singing the praises for the profession. But the same voters and taxpayers who will gush about their kids' teachers will lambast that "damn union." I think in a lot of voters' minds, there's a clear distinction between that saintly teacher and that greedy union. WEAC = Teachers to the teachers themselves, but not much farther. From Tommy Thompson to Scott Walker, the rhetoric has been the same: "I don't have anything against teachers. I LOVE teachers! It's their union and it's leaders I have a problem with." That's a message that resonates with "Joe six-pack." Truth be told, I know a few teachers themselves with whom it resonates too. They won't be bringing apples to the teacher on July 12, they'll be voting. Shelly's WEAC and NEA resume might look outstanding inside the tent, but she'll be running waaaay outside the tent, and I'm afraid that's going to give the GOP, Koch Brothers, Walker, et a lot with which to beat and bloody her as a candidate for state senate. I really, really, really hope I'm wrong, and will happily eat my words if she's senator-elect on July 13th.
9:05 am on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
I is just normal that some teachers are against the unions, some teachers are even Republicans. there is nothing as "the teachers", they are individuals like you and I.
If we as the voting public allow these dirty tacticts to influence us and our friend and neighbors, we don't deserve any better.
We are the ones that have to spread the "protecting tend" out for Shelly, we are the ones that have to protect her against the blody beats from the big money that wants to keep sheila as their serf!
8:48 am on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Moore taxes, Moore digging of a financial hole, Moore union buy-in in government, Moore of what got us in this mess. I don't want Moore government, I want less.
9:01 am on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Can you articulate your points a little better? Any calculations from neutral organizations show that Walker/Sheila will cost Wisconsin about 7.5 million Dollars MORE in taxes, not less. Thsi would mean that Sheila harsdorf will do the digging into the financial hole. Moore would fill that hole up again!
If you would listen to the news/read them, you would find that Wisconsin had no hole until Walker made all those tax gifts to the upper 1% of the income class. Doyle left him with a surplus, Walker dug into that and even more and thus created the mess!
Can you tell me, what you mean with less government? Who is government? The people that fill the potholes in the streets are government, the snow plow drivers are government! Do you want less of them? or less polciemen, firefighters, they are all government! Waht is less government?
10:17 am on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Thanks to Lech for a sound,well articulated reply!! As for double-dipping,take a good,long look at the USDA web site for Trim-Bel Valley Farms for farm subsidies courtesy of Uncle Sam. Make note of the owners as well as the numbers.
10:53 am on Monday, May 9, 2011
I am still waiting for your explanation an the above statement. What part of the government do you want to have removed/less of?
9:14 am on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Careful, Lech. You're asking an awful lot there. One of the things I was reminded of, in blaring, glaring examples during the Feb/March debates, is that folks on the ends...Left and Right (In my opinion, it's more prevelant on the Right), can't be troubled by pesky little items like details and facts for support. And they're happy talking in the abstract, whether they can explain in real terms what it looks like in the real world. Gov't Bad. Taxes Bad. That's all they need. On the other end: Corporations Bad. Profits Bad. This is why we're going to hear ad after ad after ad wailing not about taxes, but "JOB-KILLING TAXES." They're never road-building taxes, police-hiring taxes, farm-supporting taxes, snow-plowing taxes. In the past couple years, every tax is a "JOB KILLING TAX."
9:34 am on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Doyle left us a surplus? Really? Then why do we owe Minnesota $59 million from prior years in reciprocity money that we don't have? That's not a new debt, it's been there since Doyle's term.
And for your comment about Moore "filling the hole", I'm assuming that it's with increased tax dollars. Sorry, I don't see her as the solution to the problem, but rather just another "pass the buck to another generation" representative.
11:25 am on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Let's look at "real" numbers! The school districts in St. Croix county will loose a whooping $11.6 million. That money needs to be made up if we don't want to loose education quality! because the Hudson district did not fully utilized the allowed mill rate levy, they can increase the levy to make this up . This means in real words "HIGHER TAXES" for us! The estimated income cut for every public worker in take home pay is $2,261. There are 3,946 workers, and you get $8.9 million in reduction of purchase power for local businesses. This means lower sales tax revenues, closed businesses, etc. We have to make up for this reduction in "HIGHER TAXES"
The cuts to towns and cities in the county will be $1.3 million, guess who has to make up for this in "HIGHER TAXES" ?I can go on like this for all the other counties in district 10, the figures are as bad as the ones for St. Croix county!
And I can give you similar figures for the state budget, they don't jive either.
I don't understand why the budget repair is to be carried by the middle and low income families (that includes you and me0, and why the very high income earners get tax presents in the hundreds of millions! I don't understand that we as the middle class are supposed to carry the tax burden of the state (by the way, public workers a tax payers like you and I), while big corporations pay no or very little tax only, while they receive more services from the state (big government) than you and I do!
12:31 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Lech: I know you are rebutting with the "loss of purchasing power" talking point that I've heard. Consider that $11.6 million that will be lost in St. Croix County. If the state and school district were to make it so we didn't lose that $11.6 million, how would they do it?
My guess is that it would have to be made up through a combination of taxing schemes. If the state came up with the entire amount, it would have to raise it through taxes on the taxpayers of this state. Being a taxpayer, money would come out of my pocket and would be transfered to the pockets that makeup that $11.6 million. That would reduce my spending power.
Let's say the state taxed St. Croix County an additional $11.6 million to make up for that. It would mean that $11.6M would come out of one set of pockets and be transferred to another set of pockets.
Let's say the school district was allowed to levy to make up the $11.6M. Being a property owner, my taxes would go up and I would have less money to spend in the local economy. On the other hand, the school district employees would split the $11.6M into their pockets. This protery tax would be levied proportionally among trailer houses and mansion owners, because is it is levied against the value of the property.
I'm using high level numbers here, but I have issues with your resolution to the problem. Where do you see the $11.6M coming from?
7:15 pm on Sunday, May 8, 2011
I do see the money come from a more fair distribution of the tax burden. Instead of giving the upper 5% of income (remember those are not the corporations, those are the owners that pay the taxes after jobs hive been funded/created) any tax presents (like Walker did right at the beginning), and make the pay the proportional amount of their income, it would be a piece of cake to m get this money!
11:04 am on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
I haven't followed the demise of reciprocity story very closely. How did it come to be that something the 2 states agreed upon for at least 30 years and worked to the advantage of residents in both states fell apart? Now students in both MN and WI pay higher tuition to go to State Colleges and Universities in neighboring states. If you can show me evidence that Doyle initiated ditching reciprocity, I'll join you in criticism him. I don't believe that to be the case though.
11:23 am on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
I'm talking state income tax reciprocity here, TH3, where residents of MN and WI that worked in the other state had income tax withheld for their home state and only had to file one state tax return at the end of the year. The states were supposed to take care of "settling up" between themselves, which always lead to WI owing MN since the number of WI residents that work in MN is greater than the number of MN residents working in WI. The problem came up when we didn't give MN their money that we owed. Since they (MN) are also in a financial tight spot, they want their money that they're owed. Their recourse was to end the reciprocity agreement. We (WI) took on the role of dead-beat borrower. This didn't just happen. It's a carry over from our former governor, Jim Doyle.
11:32 am on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Do you have links to the fact, that Doyle was the problem? My income comes from Minesota (I worked in that state for the last 27 or so years). My job required it that i was pretty close to the political dealings in this state. I remeber that Polenti did cancel the reciprocity agreement to feed his standing with the Tea Party members there (he had already the ambitions to run for US president). Doyle was totaly surprised by this action and tried to negotiate with Polenti, who refuedde to meet with him. But the money was there, it was just not transfered yet to Minnesota. Walker dipped into this stack of cash and handed it over to his cronies!
12:54 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Isn't there a provision in the "Budget Repair Bill" to prevent local government from raising property taxes?
I'm pretty sure Walker has this covered to work the way he wants it to.
1:01 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Property taxes cannot be increased (butthe levy thing in Hudson can do this). But there is no part of the bill that forbids increases for service fees. It will be simliar to Polenti's 'no new taxes" slogan in Minnesota, that made service fees go sky high!
2:01 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
It's amazing how far the discussion in the comments section deviates from the subject of the original post.
12:57 am on Friday, May 6, 2011
Yes, where did Shelly Moore go?
2:23 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Fair enough, Michael. Does she have what it takes to win this election? Well, Senator Harsdorf's uber-partisan loyalty had led her to what I consider malfeasance regarding the constituents of the 10th Senate District. Hence, the undeniable interest in finding a replacement. (14o+ % of the required signatures). From the short clip posted here, I'd say that Ms. Moore is a well-informed, articulate and enthusastic candidate to replace Senator Harsdorf, but that's about all I can tell for now. I don't believe there's been a mid-July election in my lifetime. I believe she'll have the resources to spend, and that they'll be spent by outsiders in support of her bid. I think her union credentials will be red meat for Senator Harsdorf and those ready and willing to spend outside money in support of her and the Walker agenda. A recall, held the week after the 4th of July, is an uphill battle at best, made steeper, I believe, not by her identity as a teacher, but her political vulnerability as a "lock-step union member." I'll leave it at that, so as to stay on topic.
2:27 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Happy Badger: I think you misinterpreted my comment. I said I was "amazed." I think it's a good thing. I'm glad that the community can have a discussion among itself and doesn't look to "the media" for the instructions.
You guys rock! Keep it up!
... just make sure to keep it civil.
2:44 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Why put up a very pro union teacher as a candidate? The events in February have put a very negative view on the teachers union. Should be interesting come election time. This selection will bring out a lot of additional support for Sheila.
4:07 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Here's a riddle:
If a bunch of public union people got mad enough to collect enough signatures to recall a sitting state senator and they had to pick a candidate who represented their view point, who would they chose?
Perhaps the other choices where union members? My guess is, if they would have got Jesus to run against Harsdorf, Eagle would vote against Jesus. Does it really make a difference if the Democratic candidate is a union member? Sounds like the Sheila's two-note song will focus on the "outsiders" and "she's working for the union." Of course, Harsdorf will be signing this in the key with the one note sclae of me, me, me, me, me...
2:46 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Aha. My bad. I did interpret that as a rueful "amazed," and not a "cool!" amazed. The limits of e-communication. I'm still gonna keep on flipping off my computer screen from time to time, but will try to keep it civil when the finger returns to the keyboard.
3:37 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Why is a pro union person worse than a pro big money person?
A union person tries to better the lot of many, a big money person is only interested to make more money for a very few!
What is wrong with unions? I know a lot of wrongs with big money!
3:04 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Well, Eagle, for anyone who stops thinking about all of the issues once they run into the "union" thing, it'll be an easy vote, and that concerns me greatly. To anyone who looks beyond that to all of the real issues that caused the dust-up in Madison, it's not so simple. Senator Harsdorf let us down in blindly bowing to ALL of Walker's demands, well beyond the insurance and pension issues. Shelly Moore appears to be offering us a true, sincere representative for the 10th District.
4:28 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
I think you have the singing in the right key and the refrain will have Sheila's wealthy buddies singing
Wee, Wee,Wee all the way to the M & I Bank.
5:48 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
With all due respect to Ms Moore, to unseat a long term incumbant like Harsdorh requires someone with more experience than she has. If this is all the Democrats can find to take on this supporter of Gov. Walker and the Republican quest to weaken further the middle class, I'd say that we are in for another term for Harsdorh.
8:57 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
My comments are coming from the voice of the little amateur political science dude in me. All the comments about why Ms. Moore SHOULD defeat Senator Harsdorf are fine and good. My concern is whether she CAN. I don't believe her experiences in WEAC and NEA make her any more or less qualified to preform the duties of the office. I do fear that they compromise her electability in this district, given the current mood on both sides. To my mind, the "dream candidate" for a race like this would have been someone along the lines of the successful Steve Doyle, who just flipped an assembly seat that had been in GOP hands for 20 years. He has great government experience beyond being a public employee and his campaign addressed issues far beyond collective bargaining rights for public employees. Ilene Wright's defense of this choice is as single-issue as Eagle's criticism is. When the announcement about the successful petition drive was made, I heard Scott Herron's impassioned characterization of this effort as being more than just Left vs. Right, business vs. labor...it's about right versus wrong. The campaign can't be about preaching to the choir among union members and supporters. It's got to be about reaching the agnostics who aren't even inside sitting in the pews.
8:58 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Are the dems actually trying to win with this candidate? Straight from the classroom into a state senate seat? Not only will she be red meat with her union ties, the vote will be in the summer. With a mid-summer vote the dems can kiss goodbye any legitimate college kiddie votes and with voter i.d. legislation they can kiss goodbye the illegitimate college kiddie votes. What a waste of time. If the liberals think that they had some energy gathering recall signatures, wait until they see the energy that is going to mobilize behind the incumbent. My prediction is 60/40 Harsdorf.
11:14 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
I always hear that Shelly is a union person. Just for the records, there is no union for teachers, it is the Wisconsin Education Association, not a union, but a professional association! The nobody calls the association of doctors a union, it is the Medical Association. I was for many years my employers delegate to the Health Industry Manufacturers Association (HIMA), nobody called me a union member. The purpose of an association is to speak for the rights and advancement of its members. that is what the education association does, nothing else! Why are we using for the WEA the union terminology? Only because its adversaries have told us over and over, and we fell for it?
And governmental experience? Had any of the senators elected last fall any experience? Did Walker have any experience?I don't believe so (Walker was a failure in Milwaukee county). By the way, voter ID will not come before 2012 (if it comes) and will not influence the recall election!
And by the way, I know many former Rep voters which are exited to vote for Shelly because they dislike the big money support program from Walker and his serf Harsdorf.
I am always amazed how many people vote against their very own interests because they fall for the lies of the republican election machine. I know for sure that nobody on this web side will be served well by Walker and Harsdorf and their devotion to the very big money! We have finally have the chance to vote for interests if we vote for Shelly!
1:45 pm on Saturday, May 7, 2011
If the WEA is negotiating contracts it is a union. True Professional Organizations do not negotiate contracts because true professionals have no need to hide behind unions or collective bargaining. A true professionals work speaks for itself.
3:43 pm on Saturday, May 7, 2011
If the WEA is negotiating contracts it is a union. A true professional organization does not negotiate contracts since true professionals stand on their own merit and are awarded as such. Thats the problem with the teachers unions. They want it both ways. They want to be considered as professionals yet seek out union representation like common unskilled labor.
9:20 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
Anyone think Sheila Harsdorf is actually going to get out and campaign in person, or is she going to hide and let her big money supporters send out nasty mailings?
11:15 pm on Wednesday, May 4, 2011
I bet, we will not see her with us eye to eye. the outside of Wisconsin "big money" is rolling in already!
10:27 am on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Her public appearances will be carefully programed to appear mostly with her supporters. Let's see if she will publicly debate. I bet not!!
12:15 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
She is someone who is intelligent, dedicated, willing to help and listen. She cares deeply about WI. She is a great choice!!
3:17 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
I think Sheila will be out campaigning. She always has before. Of course, being one of the senior members of the state senate -- achieved only by career politicians -- she also has business in Madison.
Shelly will be out campaign, despite the "big union" money rolling in.
I don't anticipate any public debates. This isn't about the issues. It's about power.
6:06 am on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Lech: Uhm...right. And they're not taxes; they're revenue enhancers. Waterboarding ain't torture; it's an enhanced interrogation technique. Teachers refer to their local WEA affiliate their "union." School board member call their local professional association affiliate a union. The local professional association affiliates bargain master agreement contracts on compensation, hours and working conditions on behalf of all members of the collective bargaining unit. It's a union. Trying to deny the union label suggests that you're running away from it. In my opinion, that only hurts your position by undermining your own credibility on the issue.
7:48 am on Thursday, May 5, 2011
OK, let's spin that further. The American Medical Association set's up the base frame work for compensation with the health insurances, so does the American Hospital Association. The Health Care manufacturers Association deals with the Feds about basic Regulations for heir products and with the insurers on basic compensation for them. The Bar Association does similar things for their members. Shall we call all these groups unions? Teachers were actually pretty much the youngest association that came to these collective bargaining tables.
But OK, let's call their association a union. What's wrong with a union? why is all of a sudden this
union bashing" going on? I think it is because of special interests behind Walker and his serf Harsdorf to divide and conquer, and weaken education. Uneducated people are easy targets for manipulation, and manipulated people are very easy to push over into non critical corners. They even believe that what ever happens is for their own good, even if it is just the opposite. That is what is desired here, and it starts with this name calling of the teachers as bing union thugs! Divide and conquer, by having the groups fighting each other!
This fight is bad for either group, and can only be stopped by removing one party from the target zone. this can either be done by convincing the other group that unions are not bad, or moving the one group away from the negative union label that, in reality does not fit the teachers association
8:55 am on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Fair enough, Lech, on all of the above. but because "uneducated people are easy targets for manipulation, and manipulated people are very easy to push over..." the union label matters. Witness the number of voters who tune into Beck, Hannity and Limbaugh to get their "news" and swallow it all as fact. I have absolutely no problem with unions in the workplace, even among professionals like doctors, lawyers and educators. Run the "professional association" semantics up the flagpole at the Wisconsin Taxpayers Alliance and Wisc. Manuf. and Commerce with a straight face and see who salutes. For the sake of her own credibility in the political arena, I hope Shelly doesn't try that.
In an MPR interview the other day, UW political science prof. Charles Franklin opined that Senator Harsdorf is probably the least vulnerable of all the GOP recall targets. This is because this district has been leaning increasingly Right for the past decade, particularly in St. Croix county. Prosser carried by the county by about 300 votes in the recent "referendum" on the Walker/Harsdorf agenda. The last two "teachers' union" candidates to run for the 29th assemblyseat both lost, although the first one, Kittel, came within a few hundred votes when competing for an open seat. These aren't philosphical musings on whether or not unions are good or bad; it's not a "shoe fits...wear it" argument. They are political realities that can be dismissed only at the candidate's peril.
9:51 am on Thursday, May 5, 2011
I agree with you on the leaning of St. Croix county. However, the voing population is currently very energized, and I know many former republican voters who don't like the Walker/Harsdorf agenda and voted to recall Harsdorf. If Shelly can "harvest" this anger, and stay, as you say, away from the union subject, she has a very good chance to win against Sheila. Sheila has not real talking points besides outside interests, and tax and spending. It is easy to proof both of these arguments as wrong (as they are in reality), because analysis from the Madison offices show that the Walker/Harsdorf agenda will increase taxes (they might be called fees, but they are still taxes), and the grass rots organization that supports the recall and supports Shelly is clearly Wisconsin grown!
10:29 am on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Happy Badger, I find your comments spot-on regarding Shelly's electability in this district. A prudent strategy would be to separate the union issue from the larger issue of republican overreach. But how does the candidate whose credentials include not only being a union member, but a leader in the union, separate herself from the union? This candidate selection does not only NOT speak to the "middle ground" it has alienated some democrats, as well. Though it looks like the democratic party wants to bury its head in the sand and try to sell Shelly Moore as having wider appeal than she actually does.
A strong democrat supporter said to me yesterday: "It looks like I have been given the choice in this upcoming election vote for the republicans or the teachers, and I am neither. And though I support teachers and public schools and the right to belong to unions, this candidate does not speak for my interests."
Hudson Patch - great forum. Great coverage. Glad you're in our area to compete with the local news outlets. THANK YOU.
9:09 am on Sunday, May 8, 2011
The burden will be on the Moore campaign to frame the debate, in bold colors and loud, pointed language, on that overreach by Gov. Walker in his budget repair bill and Senator Harsdorf's refusal to even question it. She needs to be asked: Do you really favor giving legislative authority to the executive branch the way this bill does? You really believe it's a good idea to let one guy sell off public property on a no-bid basis without scrutiny by the legislature? Do you think it's okay to let the state's health secretary to rewrite medicaid qualifications without the people having a voice? Isn't it true, Senator, that union leaders and their Dem. allies had agreed to the real money issues Walker demanded BEFORE the Dem's left town? When you said, on the floor of the senate two years ago, that non-fiscal policy doesn't belong in a budget; when Walker campaigned on leaving non-fiscal items out of the budget, were the two of you lying then or lying now? These are the issues that justify the recall, in my view, since the teacher compensation questions were settled back in February. That is what Sheila Harsdorf needs to answer for in order to run a real race against her.
9:31 am on Sunday, May 8, 2011
You bring up some very good points for the campaign Happy Badger. I hope that the Moore campaign has the same idea, if not, it is our duty to make sure that she includes those questions.
11:28 am on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Elizabeth, how would the quoted person know whether Shelly speaks for him or not, if he gives her no chance to explain herself? What is bad about a teacher and an activist? isn't Sheila an activist for big money? What are this persons interests? I am not able to understand the reasoning behind comments like this. What candidate would be right for this person? All people have some kind of occupation that others don't like. My occupation creates fear in my coworkers. When somebody of my occupation visits coworkers on a professional level, they get uneasy. Does that mean I cannot represent them in a political office?
I just don't get it. Why didn't the person run for this position? Or why did the person exclude himself from the candidate election group? I am not a member of a party or a union, but I was involved in the selection of Shelly! if I could achieve this, anybody else could have participated!
8:36 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Thanks you for helping select an excellant choice. You must work for the IRS... Being a teacher is a 100% bonus for everyone. The biggest problem right now is either the lack of information or the lack of understanding of the US Constitution. Those are the only legit excuses for Standing with Walker or Hardsdolf. I read an article in the St Paul paper quoting I beliueve one of the Fitzgerald brothers saying that they can count on all the Republicans to vote the same way again if they need to slide his bill through in a different way. He said it would be political suicide for any republican to vote differently.
That again just confirmed my belief that until all the Tea baggers have been removed, its not safe to vote for any republicans. Not sure what Elizabeths point was with her comparison. If she's quoting a man it's comparable to saying " I can either vote for a republican or a Woman" and I'm not either.. I've enjoyed reading your comments Lech..Well done keep up the good work!
11:53 am on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Jesus? Did you really go there? Jesus is my lord and savior, thank you.
Personal opinion is that the left would never run him as in the political arena, they tend to run away from him.
12:41 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
You must talk of a different Jesus than than the one I know! You should read up on your knowledge of the New Testament!
My Jesus was for the poor an opressed and against the rich!
1:03 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Eagle, I really take offense at that statement. And, somehow, I just can't imagine that Scott Walker and Paul Ryan will be leading the march into Heaven. Then again, maybe you're right after all. If that's the "righteous" people they let into God's Kingdom, I think I would run away.
12:02 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Elizabeth: Let's hope that Shelly leads with the other issues and can set the agenda. I supported the recall petition effort because of Walker's gross over-reaching in the budget repair bill beyond just the collective bargaining, and Senator Harsdorf's blind support at the expense of listening to her constituents. The burden of proof in this election is going to be on her campaign to justify the firing of a sitting senator for "just cause." How about an open records request to see how many consituents emailed her office and received no response whatsoever? "She doesn't even listen to or respond to the folks back home" is a stronger message than "She voted to strip collective bargaining rights." As abhorrent as they both are, to me, the first message stands a better chance to resonate with everybody.
Lech: If you had some input into the selection process, I really hope you also have the ear of the campaign too, and that you'll be bringing them the misgivings aired in this forum. You're right in observing that Shelly hasn't yet had the time to completely introduce her entire self to the voters. But, for what it's worth, I just had coffee with a good friend who's politics are right down the line with Scott Walker's. He's delighted by the choice, practically salivating over the prospect of campaigning against Shelly Moore's union identity.
12:45 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
The group that I belong to is setting up a meeting with Shelly's team. I am glad that the Harsdorf supporters feel that they have an easy play with Shelly!
12:08 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Then again...I'm old enough to remember reading that the Carter White House was secretly cheering on the goofy possibility that the GOP would actually nominate that extremist former actor/former governor from California.
12:21 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Why has union become a dirty word associated with thugs etc. ? I'll tell you why, because the GOP understands the power of language, albeit bad language, and even untrue language. Union became an evil word because the GOP, beggining with Reagan decided they should make words like union and liberal dirty words.
I'm old enough to remember in the 70's Liberal was a good thing, a noble idea to be a liberal.
It meant you were open minded enough to consider new ideas, to be tolerant of others, to be inclusive.
I'm not sure what connotations the word "liberal" now has, since I have spared my mind the torment of listening to voices on talk radio and right wing tv have recruited an army of "ditto heads".
I imagine it's just plain easier to be a "ditto head" because you don't have to make an effort to think for yourself.
You can just listen daily, be told what to say and believe and repeat it, and repeat, and repeat it.
That's why "union" like "liberal" is now a dirty word. So what is the response of the party whose power was enhanced by unions in it's earlier days?
They shy away from the term and embrace issues that no longer have anything to do with protecting the rights of workers.
The modern Democratic party is ashamed of it's roots thus they have reaped what they have sown.
12:50 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
That's the reason why one of my friends said lately: this country has not a two party system but a one and a half party system, because the Democrats are nothing else than Republicans light!
12:26 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Hey folks. I just thought I'd jump in here and ask that folks on both sides stop imposing labels on large groups of people. It just doesn't seem very neighborly.
12:47 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Well, let's think for a moment. Who was it to call all teachers to be union thugs? Was that neighborly?
If they can dish it out, they have to be ready to take it!
12:55 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Please, Dietmar. I don't care who is doing the name calling. I just want you all to stop doing it.
1:14 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Citizen Micheal Foley:
Please don't fall into the trap of phony objectivity and false equivalency. If you publish statements that characterize people as "union thugs" you aren't obligated to censor those who respond to that characterization and, as in this case, discuss how that term is used and expose those who use it. This is much like some phony news outlets who think they are "fair and balanced" when they print the truth and feel obligated to print a corresponding lie about the same subject. This word "thug" is going to be used indiscriminately to deamonize a large group of people, you can facilitate the delegitimizing of that word by allowing it to be exposed.
1:17 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
I'm not falling into any traps. I am enjoying the lively discussion here. I just want people to keep it clean and civil. Thanks for contributing your thoughts.
1:30 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Mike, please look at the root of the word "provocative" . I seem to recall you asking for people to be provocative, when they are, the are swiftly reprimanded here. ( Picture Thurston scratching his head )?
1:40 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
You can say thing that are provocative without being hostile. I'm not saying you have to agree with other users. I'm just asking that you disagree in a way that doesn't make this a hostile forum for anyone. If this forum turns toxic, it will be of use to no one.
Most people are doing a great job here. I've had to remove just a few comments, and I've only had to suspend a handful of accounts so far.
Here's a quick reminder of the terms that all users have agreed to: http://hudson-wi.patch.com/terms
1:31 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
"I just want people to keep it clean and civil."
And you do a great job of sheparding the dialogue here, the problem of course arises when you inadvertantly caution people for using "uncivil" or defamatory generalizations when they are exposing the use of those uncivil terms. I enjoy this site and believe that you are providing a public service that is unfortunately rare in this market...I only want to provide constructive feedback to help you in your brave and unselfish act of citizenship.
1:34 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Thank you, kind sir.
1:51 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Michael: A question on the mechanics. Why is it that some of the comment boxes that appear here contain a "Reply" tab in the lower right, and others do not? It's now always possible to link a reply to the comment you're responding to. Since the comments heading toward theology and salvation don't have the reply option attached, I'll bow out here. I'm way out of my league when it comes to interpreting scripture, and that's a lot farther from the original question than I'm willing to go. I'll check back another time to see if the white smoke has cleared.
1:55 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
The "reply" button appears on comments that aren't responses to other comments. You'll also see that response comments are indented and have arrows pointing toward the comment they are responding to.
1:56 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Micahel S. Haugen,
Judging from your comments you appear to be a learned man. ( Perhaps even "liberal" in the sense of being tolerant and inclusive. )
I too applaud Mike's effort here and the forum he is providing us. I am just trying to point out that, at times, by declaring some
items "off limits" the freedom for some to express their opinions can be stifled. When I mention "ditto heads", it is a term fostered by Mr.
Limbaugh himself, at least it was in the late 90s. Maybe Mike was upset by some other comment that I'm not aware of and he felt he had to intervene?
2:00 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
It's nothing like that, Thurston. I just walked in and took the temperature of the room in general. I like things to be heated, but I don't like them to be boiling. I step in when things are hot, but before they begin to boil.
I just like to remind folks that I want this forum to be a community center, not a cage match.
3:35 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Citizen Thurston Howell III:
I'm WAAAAY to the left of "liberal" and I would encouage you to reread my post in defense of your exposition on why "unions " has become a dirty word and the previous exploration of the word "thugs" in its use to demonize groups of people and their politics. Keep the faith and pass the ammunition, Brother Thurston, but for God's sake don't shoot the friendlies.
2:17 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
I promise to behave!
2:27 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Shannon, just because people disagree politically with you, you would run from heaven if you were in teh same line? That is a bit extreme isn't it.
Lech, Isn't the class warfare issue a bit old? Rich, middle class and poor alike give time and money to assist the poor. your statement assumes that the rich do nothing to assist the poor. That is an extreme view in my opinion. Hate to break it to you, but rich people are very generous people, just like the middle class and poor. I think where were disagree is that I prefer people donate where you perfer the government take it. Sorry, I prefer my option.
For those that think taxes are to low, I have a question for you. Have you written a check to the treasury for amounts greater than you own in taxes? It is an option to you. Until you do, please do not say that taxes are to low.
2:52 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Just for your information, I am not a member of the poor class, and if I look at the standard definition of middle income, I don't even belong to that class, but I have not lost my compassion for people that are less fortunate than me and my family!
Of course do wealthy people donate (and that with a big tax write off in their mind), and this way they can select which poor fellow begs often and loud enough to receive the morsels from their table (their average amount of donations is nothing different than morsels of the tables if compared with their income). don't you think it is degrading to people more unfortunate than you and I if they have to come and beg for some handouts, without knowing, whether they get them or not? Don't poor people have the right to the dignity that they can live a life without needing to go around and hope that some of us haves felt the urge (or had their accountant tell them) to donate some money?
And what is if they are hungry but don't belong the proper church, or live in an area to which nobody makes free will donations (like in the countryside or down town Milwaukee)? Don't these people have the right to fill their tummy? making sure that those things don't happen should be one of the most noble things a government can do? Make sure that it's people are well fed and have the chance to receive a good education should be the most important duties of any government! This is true patriotism!
3:00 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
And specifically here is where the present day Republicans stray away from the proper path! All what Walker and his serf Harsdorf recommend is exactly unpatriotic! They want to reduce the welfare of our poor, old and sick, they want to reduce the quality and possibility of education for our children, they want to reduce the services that you and I receive from the government, and their only goal is to pad the already bursting full coffers of a few super rich individuals!
But again, if you prefer to give selectively, but still can sleep well at night, knowing that some poor child had nothing to eat this day, because the school aid for lunch and breakfast was eliminated in favor of tax gifts for the super rich, go ahead and have it your way, but don't even dare to call you a patriot! I'd rather be a patriot and don't mind to pay a few more dollars in taxes and am sure that these children can eat at least two decent meals a day without having to go to a soup kitchen or food shelf and have to beg for a few bits to eat!
3:11 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Thanks for your concern about my life after life. I just don't want to spend eternity with people who share Ayn Rand's idea of Utopia. I have no control over who would gain entry to Heaven if there is such a place. And I would never make a generalization that people of one political party are less Christian than others here on Earth. However, it seems to me that some people's actions speak louder than their pious words.
Come to think of it, I survived some pretty awful parochial school spiritual leaders that were very sure that they would get to Heaven. And even when I was a kid I questioned that.
Sorry if I've wandered way off topic here.
3:28 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
"...isn't the class warfare issue a bit old."
Indeed it is, Citizen, it's as old as money,politics and religion and those who have the money want to convince us who don't that that situation is the holy order of things and that those who want to make the situation more equitable or, dare I say more democratic, wage class warfare against God's law and the natural order of things. Of course, people who actually work for a living, have children in public schools, believe in democracy and the common good...these people understand that class warfare is what has been declared on them by politicians like Walker-Harsdorf on behalf of the money changes and the wealthy. People aren't buyin' what you're sellin anymore Citizen Eagle.
3:15 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
"For those that think taxes are to low, I have a question for you. Have you written a check to the treasury for amounts greater than you own in taxes? It is an option to you. Until you do, please do not say that taxes are to low."
This is not a personal attack. but to me this statement makes no sense? My comment about taxes, especially property taxes, is that for many they have gone down, not up like just about any other expense or commodity.
The right portrays higher taxes as a crisis. It is not. By not granting tax breaks to wealthy WI residents, Gov. Walker could have averted any such "crisis".
3:25 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, nearly a third of the residents in Detroit, Michigan, and Buffalo, New York are living beneath the poverty line, the highest rates among large cities in the entire country.
No matter what side of the political aisle you're on, that is nothing short of appalling.
For example, Detroit, hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1961. Buffalo started putting a Democrat in office back in 1954.
Unfortunately, those two cities may be alone at the top of the poverty rate list, but they're not alone in their love for Democrats. Cincinnati, Ohio (third on the poverty rate list), hasn't had a Republican mayor since 1984. Cleveland, Ohio (fourth on the list), has been led by a Democrat since 1989. St. Louis, Missouri (sixth), hasn't had a Republican since 1949, Milwaukee, Wisconsin (eighth), since 1908, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (ninth), since 1952 and Newark, New Jersey (10th), since 1907.
The only two cities in the top 10 that were not mention (Miami, Florida, and El Paso, Texas) haven't had Republicans in office either -- just Democrats, independents or nonpartisans.
Plase stop blaming republicans for not helping the poor.
3:38 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
I certainly will continue to blame Republicans for the poor people in our country. All those cities that you listed were not able to do anything about their situation because of the declining industry in these areas. The individual majors could not do anything about it, they just could try to soften the blows a little. The industry would still be there would not have the fed government who was republican for almost 12 years supported the outsourcing of jobs to other countries. if the government would have done everything they could to keep the industry in the USA , those cities would not have gone down this far. Of course, I know that some industries disappeared totally, but the state and federal government could have steered other industry into these cities.
The main culprit of the industrial downturn of the USA is the republican party, you can turn it any way you want! A similar industrialized country, Germany, has an economy that is roaring wild, and they are the export champions of the world! They invested into the education of their people (they are the world champion of green technologies, all big wind generators are either made in Germany or Denmark) and the wellbeing of their workforce, everything the Republicans fought to their teeth!
3:32 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
I'd like to go back to your earlier statement. I'll paraphrase, "Many wealthy people are extremely generous".
I agree, they are. However, what I believe teachers would appreciate is not charity, but an acknowledgement that what they do is of value to society and deserves an income reflecting that reality.
3:47 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Can you explain the income thing to me please. Salary and benefits for a teacher that is. Are they not compensated fairly?
4:04 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
"Salary and benefits for a teacher...Are they not compensated fairly?"
Not after Walker-Harsdorf gets done with 'em. Furthermore, cutting corporate taxes, capping property taxes ,cutting state support to local governments and reducing benefits to public workers leads to tax revenue deficits going forward so that in the next budget cycle there will be more mandated cuts in state expenditures. In addition, this is exactly how the cities you mentioned in your treatise on the natural order of poverty went bankrupt.
4:20 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
I don't know if TH III can, but I have looked into it. There seemed to be no absolute figures, but different sources state that teachers receive between 5.5% to 7% less total compensation than workers in private companies given a similar education level!
A beginning teacher in the Hudson school district (bachelor degree and licensed to teach in Wisconsin) receives an annual compensation of $22,674 and a similar amount in average fringe benefits. however, I think one should not look into the fringe benefits, because my employer never tells me how much that is (but way more than a teacher gets), and a teacher cannot pay his living expenses with the fringe benefits. I doubt that anybody can say that this amount for a college degreed person with a professional license is a good payment! But let's look into the highest payment of a Hudson teacher (the fringe benefits remain the same)
a teacher with a minimum of 15 years of teaching in the school district, who has a masters degree plus 48 graduate credits or a Phd, earns max $65,250. If my employer would over this amount of salary to a person with that level of education and experience, the applicant would roll on the floor because of laughter! if one furthermore considers that a teacher has to pay the education out of their own pocket and has to acquire it in his/her free time (mostly the summer vacations), the picture is even more out of balance!
4:44 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Now we come to the Walker/Harsdorf plan. One of the reasons that teacher salaries are rather low is the fact that teachers dedicated a part of their annual salary increase (they did not get one the last two years) to go into their pension plan and to their health care plan to ensure good health care and an adequate pension. This plan is owned by the teachers and manged by the government. Well Walker/Harsdorf now decided to dip into the plan (on could call that steeling from it, because the state does not own it), to use it for tax gifts to the upper 1% of the population. To additionally make up for this, they require the teachers to put more o of their earned money into the plan, which would lead of a reduced take home pay between 7% and 10%. Which means , the low payment will be even more reduced. if one now considers that the schools are the largest employers in the county, this reduced purchasing power will have a definite influence on the economy around here.
But to ad insult to injury, the Walker/Harsdorf plan will take away collective bargaining and would leave the teachers to be subject to merit pay. I know, this works fine in the private sector. however, the private sector has well established performance measurement systems in place, these system are missing in the education sector! who shall assess the performance of a teacher, and how shall it be done?
4:51 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
Every class is different, has different kids with different home background, different IQ's and different abilities or disabilities. How can performance be measured in such a setting? Each subject requires different teaching methods, how can the performance of a math teacher be compared to the performance of a foreign language teacher? That of a music teacher with that of a physics teacher?
I feel that the Walker/Harsdorf plan starts with step three before step one. Until the required infrastructure for a union free school system has not been established a dismantlement of the current functioning structure (and that since about 40 years) will become a disaster for the education system of Wisconsin, and will cause many of the highly qualified teachers to leave either the profession or the state. The result will be a less qualified education for our children (Wisconsin, Minnesota and Iowa have the best outcome in education of any states in the USA). Do we really want this? Don't our children, they are our future, not deserve the best education we possibly can provide them?
PS: the salary information can be found here
3:56 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
What rates should these be? if taxing the rich would fill the budget gap?
Wisconsin taxable income of $100,000 or over, apply the following rates:
Less Than Tax Computation
$ 100,000 $ 201,340 $6,198.02 plus 6.50% of excess over $100,000
$ 201,340 $ 295,550 $12,785.12 plus 6.75% of excess over $201,340
$ 295,550 or over $19,144.30 plus 7.75% of excess over $295,550
5:46 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
You fail to mention that the rates in your table would be Net Taxable Income, not Gross Income. When people refer to their annual salary it's usually to their gross income. So the people in your chart above being taxed at 6.5% would have gross annual incomes above the 100,000 mark and what is being taxed is as you accurately state the excess over the $100,000. In other words these people are very well off, unlike teachers.
9:25 am on Friday, May 6, 2011
The tax rates above are for married filing a joint return, not individual returns.
8:23 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
According to Lech's link the avg. Hudson teacher salary is $47,285. I hope they have a big enough wheel barrel to get that to the bank.
8:51 pm on Thursday, May 5, 2011
I know a teacher who rented an 18 wheeler to bring the dough home! :)
1:58 am on Friday, May 6, 2011
Lech: have I been mistaken about you? 18 wheeler? I would love to see a Moore/ Harsdorf debate on the Patch. Micheal will you please ask both of them if they are willing to answer a few questions causally with your i-phone. I thing I know the answer!!! Micheal put out the invite too both... The response from my persctive: Moore Yes .. Harsdorf..No.... I would love you to prove me wrong!! Any one else care to respond?
9:45 am on Friday, May 6, 2011
Average Salary Average Fringe
I understand that the salary can be taken over a 12 month period, but remember that Summer off leaves about 9 1/2 months of work. An average of 7 hours a working day. I think they are fairly compensated. But we can disagree and I am sure we will.
10:10 am on Friday, May 6, 2011
What you do forget that you average work day is only the contact time in front of the students. After this, the teachers have to grade the student work, have to prepare for new class sessions the next day, have to consult with students and parents, engage in student club activities, etc. I can't remember where I found it, but it was stated that the average work week of a teacher is 50 to 60 hours.
Now to the vacation, what do you think a teachers does at this time? Remember, teachers are required to do continuous education in their subject filed. the vacation is the time they increase their educational credit score. Remember, a teacher in highest salary bracket need to have either a PhD or 48 Grad School credits in their subject field. These credits are obtained during the summer vacations, which, taking this into consideration are not relay that long!
My employer gave me 5.5 weeks of fully paid vacation, plus a week of family emergency, and that is a for profit company that makes a lot of money (among the first 100 in the fortune 500). Nobody of their employees is required to do continuous education during these vacations, one does that during the paid work hours!
If your employer is not that generous, I recommend to look for a better one!
11:11 am on Friday, May 6, 2011
Base on 12 months, the $47,285/(52 weeks X 40 hours) = $22.73 per hour.
Based on 9 months, the $47,285/(36 weeks X 40 hours) = $32.87 per hour.
It's a salaried position that requires a college degree and state certification.
The rule of thumb for private industry is that the the benefits costs are around the salary doubled.
11:43 am on Friday, May 6, 2011
And this makes it in my book as being low paid for the position. If one assumes that a language teacher, for example, could be similar educated as a certified translator (advanced university degree, etc.) on has to reach this conclusion. A certified translator earns about $80 - $120 an hour (depending on the job). All the German teachers that I know in the Hudson High School have masters degrees plus many more graduate credits, but they do not even come close to a translators income. A translator is paid for every hour she/he works, a teacher is salaried and even though they work many hours more than the core hours, their salary will not change.
5:46 am on Friday, May 6, 2011
The Republicans HAVE a solution: Tax the Middle class more.
7:42 am on Friday, May 6, 2011
>Elizabeth, how would the quoted person know whether Shelly speaks for him or not, if he gives her no chance to explain herself? What is bad about a teacher and an activist?
Nothing bad in and of itself, in fact, that person said he supports teachers and unions, and is a democrat. But there appears to be one item on Ms Moore's resume, and that item does not have widespread appeal.
>What are this persons interests?
Business. I have a few liberal friends who are self-employed or own small businesses. They support unions, they love the teachers in their school districts, but selection of Shelly Moore as a candidate appears a single-issue candidate.
So please read this again - this is not about being against teachers or unions, this is about a candidate that lacks broad appeal to the democratic base. Ms Moore's resume, though impressive in her field of work, is rather thin, and has a lot of people scratching their heads.
If the democrats are going to discount and ignore their own base, they can kiss this election good-bye.
As far as the selection process, I believe about 23,000 people in the district expressed some interest, by signing a recall petition, in a new candidate for state Senator. The process by which Ms Moore was selected was anything but open, transparent and fully accessible to the public.
If I missed the public announcement of this special selection process, could you please direct me to notice? Thank you.
8:23 am on Friday, May 6, 2011
I have to apologize for me not getting it. What makes Shelly Moore a single issue candidate? Don't you think that a teacher (and Shelly is a national Board Certified Master Teacher) should be able to handle issues of a broad range of her possible voters? Why would the democratic base rather not vote or vote for a person from the republican party? I am absolutely new to all this (as I said earlier, I never did belong to a party). what does the democratic base expect or want? What is wrong with Shelly's resume? She is a teacher that achieved the highest level of certification possible for a teacher, she is very active in her professional association (so was I), and represents the Wisconsin chapter of it in DC (so did I for Minnesota). What is wrong with a person that is very much engaged in her profession? As I said, I just don't get it!
8:29 am on Friday, May 6, 2011
Concerning the selection, how is the base brought into it at other times? I got involved in a non partisan grass roots group starting with the recall of Sheila. There was an announcement on the web that a public introduction of candidates would be in Amery. A few of our group went there and we later invited a few candidates for our own interviews. We all agreed that Shelly would be the best, and made our opinion heard loud and clearly to the Democratic Party leadership.
What was wrong with this process? Why did the complainers not get involved?. But again, I don't know the "normal" process.
Elizabeth, I just hope that we can convince you and your friend to vote for Shelly Moore. We, as a very unpolitical grass roots group believe that Shelly Moore will be good for District 10, and hope that she can bring some of her teachers ethics to Madison and teach them a lesson on how not to deal with ones constituents
8:27 am on Friday, May 6, 2011
I agree with Lech, Shelly would be a great candidate. She would represent ALL the poeple! I just watched her YouTube video demanding R-E-S-P-E-C-T for the WEAC union members! Sorry, I had to throw in that reference to Aretha Franklin since Shelly broght it up first. I guess I'm just curious why Shelly pulled all of those nice videos from the internet. Isn't she proud of her great speech at the WEAC convention? Word has it that those videos will be showing up soon on another local blog....
8:54 am on Friday, May 6, 2011
The pulling of the videos was very important. During my working life I received trainings on how to act in critical press interviews. There we were shown what a creative film editor/cutter can do with the most need movie clips. They can turn a kind birthday gratification into a very nasty propaganda clip! That is what Shelly tried to avoid, to get a hold of her videos and edit them into nasty pieces against her!
8:38 am on Friday, May 6, 2011
Please ask Sheila Harsdorf to turn in her Chamber of Commerce membership card.
Thanks. I knew you'd understand.
12:33 pm on Friday, May 6, 2011
Lech, I agree with your comment "If your employer is not that generous, I recommend to look for a better one!" Maybe the German teacher's should take that advice and leave to be A certified translator.
12:34 pm on Friday, May 6, 2011
A few questions for Ms. Moore:
When was the last time you drew a paycheck from a job in the private sector?
Did you join the protest on any occasion in Madison?
Did you join in any protest(s) in our area?
If you did protest, did you protest at a time when either school was in session or scheduled to be in session?
11:16 pm on Friday, May 6, 2011
Of course I can't speak for Ms. Moore, but I'm curious as to the point of the questions.
On the first: I, personally, have a couple decades in the public sector under my belt, and about a decade in the private. Is there some qualitative difference between the paychecks I received in either one?
On the second and third questions: what's your point? What should we learn from a U.S. citizen exercising their First Amendment rights to free speech, to peaceably assemble and look to government for a redress of grievances? (There go those darned public employees again, acting like they're citizens or something. Don't ya' just hate that? I thought that was reserved lately for Tea Party supporters.)
On the fourth: I won't assume Ms. Moore's answer, but I hope that any teacher who violated their contract with their district were held fully accountable by their school board, under the terms of those same mutually agreed-upon contracts. I know that in Hudson, that's what did happen to the teachers found in violation of their agreements with the district. Ellsworth? I don't know. Likewise, I hope that the doctors who were found to be writing bogus medical excuses in Madison were disciplined by their own employers and/or professional "police."
3:18 pm on Friday, May 6, 2011
The last private sector job she held could be right now as many teachers actually need a second job to help with expenses. I know several teachers who work a part time job on weekends to make ends meet. Just a reminder to you that not all public sector jobs are a piece of cake. For some, they are given crumbs compared to the private sector.
Take off your rose colored glasses and follow a teacher for a few days and you will soon learn that there isn't enough money to pay teachers what they are really worth.
1:06 pm on Friday, June 10, 2011
Joan, one problem I have with this statement is where you can go online and see what the teachers in our area districts make. I wish everyones salaries were posted. I think it would give some people a good perspective of what each other makes. I believe if they can't make it on their wages, they are living beyond their means. They make in 1 salary what my husband and I make together. I work a full-time private job, my husband is self-employed who took a big salary cut in February. Not because of the Walker plan, but because of the economy. And we are proud we work full-time and support our family with no help. We have many friends and relatives that are teachers. I do not want to see any of them take a paycut as I found it is not fun to try and figure everything out without that money. We have many awesome teachers in our district and we appreciate them. That does not mean that I don't think they can't pay for part of their insurance and 401k. If we can do it on our income, they can on theirs. Teaching is not an easy job, just as ours is not. And our jobs are just as beneficial to you, as yours is to our kids! People have got to start giving each other credit on all these issues and stop tearing each other down.
4:30 pm on Friday, May 6, 2011
@Eagle's Response to Lech,
I hope that teachers with Master's Degrees don't leave. That would be the brain drain in public education.
Those advanced degrees are often for pedagogy and methodology. It is amazingly difficult to replace that experience with someone who is simply an expert in the content area.
For example, an art teacher may have a master's in teaching and continually improving that craft, rather than becoming a better artist.
Genius artists don't necessarily make good teachers. Native speakers don't necessarily make good foreign language teachers either. Good teachers make good teachers and Masters Degrees are evidence of continuous improvement in that skill. See them leave and you will likely also see fewer young teachers pursue earning a Master's Degree.
10:55 pm on Friday, May 6, 2011
You are correct! If we continue to treat our top teachers as bad as we currently do, we may lose quite a bit of brain power. Wisconsin has about double as many national Board approved Master Teachers as Minnesota (just as a refresher, these are the teachers that Bush referred to as very highly qualified teachers). Most of these Master Teachers are the mentors of "newcomers" in their specific teaching filed. Minnesota is looking with envy at Wisconsin's Master Teachers, and would be exited to hire them away from Wisconsin (I do not know about the situation in other states that border Wisconsin). I know of one of those teachers who has already received some hidden offers from Minnesota School Districts. Is that what we want. loose our top teachers to other states? By the way, Shelly Moore is also one of the Master Teachers!
5:43 pm on Friday, May 6, 2011
Dad -E -O,
You said: "Genius artists don't necessarily make good teachers."No truer words can be spoken. As you imply above, teaching is an art in itself. It's a widespread misbelief that art cannot be taught, that you are born with that talent.
Our Hudson high school art teacher has disproved that theory many times over. I know from personal experience with students in my family, that a good teacher CAN teach art. Of course those who dismiss art as an "amenity" could care less.
1:31 pm on Saturday, May 7, 2011
Quit painting teachers as being enslaved to their profession and thereby being victims because they have some inborn sense to "do it for the children". I have a few teachers in my family so you don't need to attempt to school me on what their job duties entail. My earlier questions were for my own curiosity. There were no wrong answers.
The robo-call score at my house so far: Moore: 2 (thanks to the AFL-CIO) , Harsdorf: 0
2:21 pm on Saturday, May 7, 2011
So, tell me, what are doing the teachers in you family the job for? For the money? And what do they tell you what their job duties are? Are they telling you they are at home immediately after school is done, and they do not any school work at home? Ask them and let us know, so we will be able to correct our wrong picture about teachers!
3:20 pm on Saturday, May 7, 2011
And, my questions to you, Dirk...?
3:28 pm on Saturday, May 7, 2011
To answer a previous question - Socialism is an economic system where production is commonly or publicly owned and controlled. Noticeably similar is communism where production is controlled by the state.
3:49 pm on Saturday, May 7, 2011
I new that there is a reason that Wikipedia is successful!
Well, now that you know what the word stands for, can you elaborate a little what this has to do with the statement Shelly Moore made in the video on the Borderline blog, and what socialism has to do with Shelly Moore as a Senator?
4:00 pm on Saturday, May 7, 2011
Pretty simple. We demand respect (she said) whether we earn it or not (i said). We collectively. Not I am my own person capable of coming to my own conclusions and capable of supporting myself by my own actions. No, its about us and you need to take care of us !
5:49 pm on Saturday, May 7, 2011
And what is wrong if she says at a convention of the association that the members of this association want to be respected?
Have you ever been at a convention of professionals? All the conventions I have been, the speakers always were speaking on association matters for ALL members of the association. that is very common speech!
You must have seen a different video than i did. I did not hear anything in the video about "you need to take care about us"!
But let me tell you, it gets tiresome to correct false interpretations of old videos for people that seem not to be able to differentiate the term "social" (as in social security, social studies, social hour, etc.) from the term socialistic!
If you want to continue, you might discuss with yourself!
4:21 pm on Saturday, May 7, 2011
The teachers in my family seem to live a comfortable life, have never worked a summer job to supplement their income and appear to have ample time to spend with their children evenings and weekends. I don't know exactly how many hours a week they put into their profession during the school year, but know that their summers are free. They have salaried positions, just like I do, so if they work more or less than a 40 hour work week is irrelevant. It comes with the territory, or as they say, that's the way the cookie crumbles.
5:50 pm on Saturday, May 7, 2011
Dirk, so than tell me what to you have against teachers, why are you biased against them?
12:04 am on Sunday, May 8, 2011
So, if I'm following the logic, Scott E., "We..." = "Socialistic?" That's it? As in "We the people of the United States...?" and "We hold these truths to be self-evident...?" Bunch of socialists.
Do the pronouns "Us" and "Our" work the same way, or is it just "We?" I'm worried about "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."
1:38 pm on Sunday, May 8, 2011
We the people.........All right the Declaration of Independence! Thats the document that says that collective bargaining is a basic human right. Wait a minute....can't seem to find it there. Must be in the Constitution then. Wait, no.... its not there either. Gee where are these basic human rights I keep hearing about spelled out?
1:54 pm on Sunday, May 8, 2011
Happy, et all, Scott E. is not doubt one - which maybe be all - of the www.ontheborderline.net bloggers. "Scott E." would be used to get us to think he is the local teacher rep. If you check out how many comments are made on that blog, you will notice it's somewhere around zero. As with many on the hard left, they follow the zealots creed of "it's my way or the highway." Besides, what credible blog doesn't allow those it impugns to counter their attacks?
You will notice phrases like "typical liberal communists." What you need to know is that ANYONE who doesn't goose step to their world view is a "typical liberal communist." As one who's been kicked off that blog a few times years ago, believe me it know.
It's interesting to note that two of the main participants on the blog used to live on either of one of Hudson's favorite John Birch Society proponents. In the late 1960s and into the 70s, his wife would religiously attend all high schools assemblies to make sure that the local youth were not being indoctrinated with with "typical liberal communists" ideas. From people who know the two OTBL bloggers I know, they were basically non-political until they met their neighbor.
So don't waste too much time and energy worrying about what is said or posted on that blog or by trollster "Scott E." They can't help it if they drank from the reactionary Kool-aid filled toilet bowl of political hatred and individual self-worship at such impressionable ages in their lives.
2:15 pm on Sunday, May 8, 2011
At the risk of nitpicking, Scott E., the "We the people" document is the U.S. Constitution, and it doesn't speak at all to basic human rights. The "We hold these truths" document is the Declaration of Independen, which does peak to "unalienable rights," but isn't a legal document. The first document created the federal government and empowered the same government to create states like ours, through democratic means. Then, in 1959, the people of Wisconsin, through their elected legislature, recognized the legal right (as opposed to human right) of public employees to collectively bargain. The law was enacted as a stand-alone measure, fully debated by the people's representatives in the legislature. It wasn't tucked into a budget bill because it didn't directly deal with taxing and spending and, back then, elected leaders respected the importance of such a distinction: fiscal policy vs. non-fiscal policy. Happily, in 2009, Senator Harsdorf spoke very eloquently on the floor of the state senate about how undemocratic it is to slip non-fiscal policy into a budget, and candidate Scott Walker expressed the very same sentiment in his campaign for governor. He also campaigned for higher contributions from public employees in their pensions and insurance. These, of course, are fiscal items.
Fast-forward to 2011. Newly elected Governor Walker introduces a budget repair bill to the legislature. to be continued...
2:43 pm on Sunday, May 8, 2011
Governor Walker's bill, however, goes way beyond the fiscal items he campaigned on. He demands, and gets, higher contributions from public employees. Fair enough, but he also proposed undoing over 50 years of labor law and shifting significan powers out of the hands of the "people's branch" of state government and into the hands of the executive. (you remember checks and balances, separation of powers and all that, right?)
This would be like the governor reasoning that we could fix a budget hole if we lowered the drinking age. Wouldn't we see an increase in tax revenue if more people drank legally? So let's include it in the budget. I dare say a few folks might say, "Hold the phone!" But in the current real situation, when folks said "Hold the phone!" the governor and Senator Harsdorf effectively told them where to go. Hence, the recall efforts. My support for the recall isn't about the money. It's about a governor's gross over-reaching beyond what he said he'd do and a party-loyal senator turning her back on her responsibilities to the process, the principles and the people she represents.
In this case, basic human rights do not apply to the democratically enacted legal rights and a sound, democratic process that created them. Sadly, Senator Harsdorf's action have little to do with sound, democratic procedures either. I was merely trying to appl your reasoning that "We" = Socialism. Sorry if I confused you.
7:52 pm on Monday, May 9, 2011
Great job HB. You caught it! I figured that one would have lasted a while around here. Since you are familiar with the Constitution would you do me a favor and read it over and let me know where it says the federal government guarantees all its citizens a retirement (let alone through a giant ponzi scheme), health care, and subscription drugs. While you're at it let me know where it says the federal government should collect an income tax also. As for the 50 years of labor law pertaining to collective bargaining for state employees - I was always told its never to late to correct a mistake.
11:08 pm on Sunday, May 8, 2011
The OTBL group, size unknown, will clearly oppose Shelly Moore and support Sen. Harsdorf by default because Harsdorf is in lock-step support of Gov. Walker. What a shock. But OTBL is not, in my view, going to convert anyone to their view in this recall election. The folks who agree with sentiments on that site already have the depressing sentiments on that site before they visit the site. I believe they visit the site for the affirmation they can't get out here in the real world. There's nothing there for Ms. Moore to worry about because it's not like she's going to lose votes through that site's rhetoric.
But the same is true on the other side. Voters inclined to visit WEAC's website, for example, or the Recall Harsdorf site already have their minds made up on this election. Most people don't go to agenda-driven websites in search of the unvarnished, "fair and balanced" truth. Imagine an open-minded voter thinking "I wonder how I should vote in July. I'll just check out WEAC to see what I can learn."
Shelly Moore is going to have to get out there and persuade the folks in the middle that this isn't really a choice between a socialist union thug and a money-grubbing corporate shill with his boot on the throat of the helpless working man or woman. I think that if she can rise above that extremist clamor on both sides and hold Senator Harsdorf to account on the good government grounds, she could pull this off.
10:44 pm on Monday, May 9, 2011
Have Dean's posts been "cleansed" from the OTBL motherload?
9:35 am on Tuesday, May 10, 2011
I'm sure they are there. You just have to know the names he posted under.
8:59 pm on Tuesday, May 10, 2011
Earlier in the decade, classified ( i.e. union UW-campus employees ) worked several years without a contract. Their union was by and large ineffective in representing these workers. I may not have the facts 100% accurate, however I believe the union wound up with about a 1%/ year increase if that. Now that's inflationary! ( not ).
9:58 pm on Tuesday, May 10, 2011
I just found out that Sheila is one of the Reps who don't care how safe the municipal drinking water is.
She is one of the bill cosponsors that remove the requirement for sanitation of municipal drinking water!
Do they plan to kill us ?
10:15 pm on Tuesday, May 10, 2011
Careful, Lech. To be fair, the LRB analysis says the law would prevent the DNR from requiring "continuous disinfection" in municipal water supplies. Perhaps "occasional" disinfection is going to be allowed? I hope they're going to tell us which days it'll be safe to drink the water.
Note, too, that the exception is "unless continuous disinfection is required by the federal government." Must be a misprint. The Walker/Harsdorf regime is suddenly bowing to the feds? What gives? They don't want federal money encouraging high speed rail, don't want federal guidelines for health care for the poorest, but are rolling over on the water.
I smell lip service to their right-wing base. "We got the DNR off the back of local governments again." (unless the feds care more about public safety than we do).
9:06 am on Wednesday, May 11, 2011
Well, I made my living for a while as an Infection Control and Prevention Specialist in the research lab of one of the big companies around the Twin Cities, and I can tell you from that experience that a "little control" once in a while will not help. With infectious diseases (and many of them are water borne), one has to go it full time!
I don/t want to give a microbiological lessen here, but i am glad that I have my own well.
9:03 pm on Thursday, May 12, 2011
According to The Star Observer this bill will require 66 communities in the whole state who currently do not continuously chlorinate their water to start doing so. Anyone with the equipment already in place would continue to do so I'm sure. If these 66 communities needed to do so I would think their customers would demand it without Big Brother telling them to. Private wells are not chlorinated unless the owners are manually adding chlorine to their well, not an easy task. OMG, how will we all survive!!
11:03 pm on Tuesday, May 10, 2011
I really wish you all would stop mentioning that blog here. I work hard to keep this a classy forum.
8:21 am on Wednesday, May 11, 2011
Mike, apparently there is some pent up aggression in the community of said blog. I certainly appreciate that you allow for give and take on this forum. I noticed above a number of deleted comment notices.
I saddens me to know that I live in a community that lacks the civility to have adult discussions about important community issues. I also saddens me to know that do this attacking don't have the spine to present their points of view using their real name.
But, as my father use to say, "Shut up and deal the cards!"
8:44 am on Wednesday, May 11, 2011
How does the old saying go?... "When you jump in the the pigpen to fight a pig, you both get dirty—and the pig actually enjoys it."
6:27 am on Wednesday, May 11, 2011
In a Democracy, many of these values are at odds. Classy and politics are often incompatible. I don't envy your position having to choose one or the other. When someone posts a video from "that blog" attacking a candidate we support, are we to be pacifists and not respond? I for one would be delighted if "that blog" ceased to exist.
7:17 am on Wednesday, May 11, 2011
If you want to respond to that blog, do so on that blog. My advice to you would be to ignore it all together. It's not worth a response. In either case, please don't link to it from here. It's not appropriate to associate Patch with a blog that is involved in widespread defamation and libel of among other unsavory acts. Those political views are welcome on Patch, but those tactics are not.
Also, if you really would be delighted if that site ceased to exist, you'd stop sending them web traffic by visiting and posting links to it. You're doing their publicity work for them.
9:59 am on Wednesday, May 11, 2011
"Also, if you really would be delighted if that site ceased to exist, you'd stop sending them web traffic by visiting and posting links to it. You're doing their publicity work for them." Excellent point Mike. Now if you can only ferret out those who post there and here.
7:16 am on Wednesday, May 11, 2011
Your point is well received. The attention here tends to legitimize "that blog," as if the manner of the opinions expressed there deserve more than cursory, curious contempt. Classy and politics don't have to be incompatible. It's up to the practitioners. For me, I'll strive to practice what I preach and focus on the message and not the messenger, referring only to "some angry, unfortunate souls" from time to time. Since they've pretty much gone silent here, I'm content to leave them alone.
Therefore, I'll not forward the picture I received showing a Ford 4x4 sporting a huge sign on the back with a picture of the governor and the question, "Does this Ass make my Truck look Big?" Funny? Absolutely. Classy? No. I'll keep it to myself.
7:21 am on Wednesday, May 11, 2011
Thanks for taking the high ground. :-) It's much appreciated.
10:21 am on Wednesday, May 11, 2011
Regarding the pig analogy, I've always liked "It's like trying to teach a pig to sing. It just confuses and annoys the pig, and makes you look like a fool in the process."
10:27 am on Wednesday, May 11, 2011
I'll also be removing comments that link to or discuss posts on the corresponding liberal blog. If you want to engage in those discussions, do so on those sites. In my opinion, both sites are little more than snipe attacks and yelling matches.
I'm raising the bar for political discourse on Patch.
11:01 am on Wednesday, May 11, 2011
I am so new to this blogging deal thast I did not even know there was a liberal blog. Did I miss out on something? And now that you removed the link I will die uninformed?
11:23 am on Wednesday, May 11, 2011
Thank you, Michael, for your skilled moderation of this forum. And thank you everyone who can respectfully participate in critical evaluation of our current issues. The decorous commentary on this site is the reason I return.
9:29 pm on Wednesday, May 11, 2011
Boy that's enough platitudes to make me want to puke......
9:43 pm on Wednesday, May 11, 2011
Go ahead and make us laugh!
9:48 pm on Thursday, May 12, 2011
Thanks for "not" sharing that negative depiction of our Governor.
10:50 pm on Thursday, May 12, 2011
Thank you for the clarification on the details of that bill. As usual, the simplest descriptions don't suffice.
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