"The leading US housing expert..."

And that would be...whom?

Sorry, Draves, even with your 'impressive' resume, you're still full of BS.

What good is a train station in town when all the outlying areas are the ones that would "need" to be developed?
Where would the train go? Hopefully not to the cities. Thats all we need is the ghet train bringing thugs over... (ahem..lightrail...MOA....)

Why do we need to grow? I moved to Hudson because it's just big enough yet not too big. Let the other counties grow in eastern MN. Population growth usually leads to more problems, and bigger govt, wait bigger govt is usually the biggest problem.

Great question Chadwick. Towns and counties either grow, or decline. There's no real status-quo option. When I lived in Kansas and the Interstates came along, if your town was on an Interstate (like Hudson) you were cool, but if your town was off the Interstate (like Prescott) your town dried up.
If you lived here 100 years ago, you probably would have lived (most people did) on a farm of 40 or 80 acres. But then, like today, technology changed and your farm value would have declined 30% between 1910 and 1920. Just like your house will probably decline 30% in value between 2010 and 2020. By 2030, if history is a guide (and it is) your house will be worth spare parts. Unless we do something.

so why isn't the interstate working then?
Apparently you havent been on the light rail between the mall and mpls....
I have been to enough forigen countries (europe)to know one thing...they aint like the US. Their people aint like the US folk. They mostly respect each other. Here its becoming more and more "I do what I wa-ahnt" attitude.

Great question on "why isn't the Interstate working." Goes to the heart of the matter. Nice job.
Gen Y, people age 32 and under, are driving less. This started in 2001, well before any recession, gas price, etc. situation. And Gen Y is switching from cars to trains. And they are moving to cities with light rail and trains (like MSP).
And this is taking place here, in St. Croix County, throughout Wisconsin, throughout U.S. actually. And nobody has come up with a way to force young people to start driving more again.
If you are over 40, you don't notice, because you (46% of the population) are driving 59% of the miles, so you and all your friends are still driving (and maybe always will). But VMT (vehicle miles travelled) is down in Wisconsin, because young people are just not driving, just not buying cars. They are taking light rail and trains instead.
They have their reasons, the biggest is economic: you can't work and drive at the same time. So you waste 2 hours, 25% of productive work time, driving. On a train you can work and travel at the same time. Super question, thanks.

If as you say ":But VMT (vehicle miles travelled) is down in Wisconsin, because young people are just not driving, just not buying cars. They are taking light rail and trains instead." I guess the trains are already here then? How you jump to that conclusion is beyond me. Vehicle miles are down because people are out of work and not driving back and forth to work, or can't afford to buy gas since they are out of work. Gasoline usage is down too. Not because of improved mileage or conservation, its the depression. With 20+% unemployment it easy to figure why vehicle mileage is down, and its not trains!

Mainstreet, thanks for your question. VMT is down among young drivers according to the DOT statistics.

And there's no data suggesting VMT is down for people age 40-65. The latest DOT data in 2010 (middle of the recession) has VMT actually up for people ages 40-65.

To your second question, Mainstreet, yes trains are here in Wisconsin. The Hiawatha from Milwaukee to Chicago is the sixth busiest route in the nation. And the most on-time. There are 6 or 7 trains each way a day, and they want to add one more.

Here in St. Croix County we are just 30 miles from two train stations, St. Paul and Redwing. This route also has record ridership. In fact, Amtrak overall has reported record ridership for 7 of the last 8 years, and for 11 straight months this year.

Hey Draves, don't you agree that Hudson is just a throwback to when the rivers where used as the main mode of transportation. As use of the rivers for transporting goods has declined the purpose of Hudson has as well.

What you haven't taken into account is the change that the Internet provides in the freedom for people to work from home. Many companies are moving toward this model, where people don't have their own offices/cubicles, and do "office hotelling" on the few days that they go into the office. VIOP phones allow the "office phone" to be at home, or even forward to a person's cellphone. Video conferencing makes it even easier. With people working from home, companies can reduce their cost of office space.

If a commuter rail station was to be put in Hudson, it would need to be somewhere along St. Croix St., since that's where the tracks are. That would either put it down near the river, or on the eastern edge of town.

I'm not anti-train. However, passenger rail in the US has never made a profit. In order to get people to ride the trains, they would need to be timely (close to the same time as driving), convenient (travel when desired by most people), and cost-effective (cost no or little more than driving). That's difficult to do over long distances.

Great questions Carbon Bigfuut. You are correct that telework is on the increase. And actually people who work from home, like me and people in my company, want to take trains. We know how valuable time is. So working from home actually is a big reason why more people want and ride trains now. On a train, we can work and travel at the same time.

Carbon Bigfuut, as to your point about "never made a profit," actually no form of transportation (planes, cars, boats) makes a profit. All transportation is subsidized by tax payers.

But here in Wisconsin if you take a train to Milwaukee, you will cost tax payers LESS than if you drive your car to Milwaukee. Train riders pay 63% of the cost, while car drivers now only pay 51% of the cost. So cars now cost tax payers more per mile than trains.

Cities are different in europe too. a lot less sprawl. most peopel live near city center where train stations are. yes, they have feeder trains from smaller cities to get you to the "main" stations, but here, we are so spread out...makes it hard to be effective.
That and where do you think the money would come from to pay for this? Tax the rich again?

Carbon Bigfuut, Your comment about "move to where the train is" is EXACTLY what the data shows is happening, and exactly what will happen in St. Croix County once there is a train stop in/near Hudson. You hit the nail on the head as to what the migration/moving thing is going on. Nice observation.

Carbon, while I, like you, would love to "save small towns and rural areas" (I actually had a job trying to do this in Kansas) the data from the U.S. Census, DOT, housing folks, all indicate that population growth has slowed or stopped for St. Croix County, and that housing sales in St. Croix County no longer lead Ramsey and Hennepin, but are now behind those more urban counties.

I would love to be able to commute by train but the light rail is an example of how unsafe it is, with robber and theft everyday. It is also a easy ride to bring theft to the city we live in. If you traveled on the light rail you would also see how its brings and unwelcome element. I moved here because its safe and a great community and I would like it to stay that way.

Mr. Draves, your points are well put. I completely agree with you premises.

I lived on the north shore of northern IL and 35 miles from downtown. The train was a terrific way to get to and from the city whether for work or play for our residents.

Gretchen, the Minneapolis Public Schools have just given light rail passes to all their high school students, good for day or evening. So the school system thinks light rail is safe enough for children. If you have other data on safety, please share it with us.

Thanks for sharing your experience Mr. Simmons. The evidence suggests that our youngest adults and future generations also agree. It's really that 80 million (Generation Y) that is 'driving' this whole thing. Us older adults are just bystanders.

If we got a commuter rail station in Hudson, where would it link up to? Which major employers would it deliver commuters to? 3M, Andersen, etc.?

What time frame would you see this happening in?

There have been attempts to have bus links in Hudson for commuters to the cities. Those have failed. Why would light rail be different?

This would be an entire cultural shift for people to go from the freedom of driving along in a vehicle to work to parking, climbing aboard a train and working your way to you work place via light rail and city bus connections.

wouldn't it be more feasible to built a station on the Minnesota side of the river and run it like a park-and-ride? Certainly you aren't suggesting building a bridge for this rail station?

If you used the exist rail line through Hudson, would additional stations be east of the line?

Jim Bob, great questions. Business people don't take buses. We just don't. We need and want light rail and trains. They go faster, they are safer, more comfortable, and more. And 80 million young people want trains. The combo of young and business people is why trains and light rail are setting ridership records.

When light rail and train stations are built, business moves near them. So do people. So real estate values around Twin Cities train stops have increased, even during the housing downturn.

The commuter train station in Hudson would go east to Menomonie, Eau Claire, and later to Stevens Point and then to economically rich Fox Valley of Appleton.

Jim Bob, you are absolutely right about an "entire cultural shift." That is exactly what is happening. The majority of people under age 32 are moving to places with light rail and trains. Us old people, we're not going anywhere. But that's not the future of St. Croix County. The future, as it always does, rests with the young professionals and business people. And they are either moving out, or no longer moving into St. Croix County.

And just so you understand, young people don't see any "freedom of driving." They see death, and call cars a deathmobile. And they see auto pollution destroying the world. And they don't want to waste time driving. They want to be able to work and make money while traveling on a train. We could argue about that, but that's what young professionals and business people think, and so far no one's changed their minds. So unless someone else here has a brilliant idea, the decline in St. Croix County will continue.

Jim Bob, you are correct that St. Croix County grew 33% between 2000-2010. But 27% of that growth occurred between 2000 and 2007. Between 2007 and July 2011, we grew only 4,810 or just 6%. That's the kind of evidence for the U.S. Census Bureau report and the prediction from housing experts that the era of suburbs is over. Real estate companies are also betting their fortunes on this as well, investing in urban property near light rail and train stations.

Jim Bob, maybe they mean $50 round trip. Right now someone can travel by train between Milwaukee and Chicago for $24 one way, and the trains are packed.

This week you can go from Red Wing (my choice over St. Paul) to Chicago for only $78.

We shall see the impact of the bridge. But Ramsey County is betting young professionals would rather buy a home near light rail than spend $10,000 a year on a car, plus 2 hours a day driving. Ford, GM et al are desperately trying to figure out how to make young people change their behavior. They too hope your bridge 'guess' reverses history. It will be interesting to see how long St. Croix Co. business and government leaders hope and guess before they acknowledge the statistical trendline.

From 2010 to 2011 St. Croix County grew by 0%, no growth in population. Of bigger concern is that by age, 35-39 down 9%, 40-44 down 5%, and 45-54 down 3%.

Are you related to Peter Tork of the Monkees?

Jim Bob, oh oh, you outed me! Yes, Peter is my second cousin. Nice guy, just like in the shows. His last name is Thorkelson, and was my mother, who grew up in Racine. Peter's father grew up in/near Sheboygan.

Thanks John. People have been posting very good questions and interesting comments. Jim Bob helped me discover some new info in the data today, so I'm benefiting too.

Jim Bob, yes I do want to bet. But more importantly, you have pointed out that all of us are betting (our home values and our business) on this. The State of Wisconsin is betting its third best tax revenue county on it, think of the risk of that bet! A bunch of us are hoping St. Croix Co. will wanna hedge the bet and support a train station in Hudson.

$4 gas isn't even convincing the nay-sayers. How about $6 gas? $10? $15? What will get us out of our individual transport pods?

Thanks for joining the conversation GD Freethinker. You are right, higher gas prices certainly move some people to mass transit, no question. But the statistics suggest people over 40 drive, no matter what the gas prices; and people 32 and under take trains, no matter what the gas prices. The problem for St. Croix County: decreasing young professionals, as young people want to take trains, no matter what the gas prices.

Jim Bob, great question. You are right, this is a "foreign concept" to anyone over 40 and grew up in the age of factories and suburbs. Just like St. Croix Co people 100 years ago (farmers) could not understand, and actually fought against, factories and suburbs.

The demographic you describe, 32 with MBA from UMD is exactly the type of person 'driving' all this. For that person, and millions of other young business people and professionals, time is so valuable. It's all about business and economics. That person has to make between $100 an hour and $500 an hour for her/his company. So wasting 2 hours a day driving costs too much money, especially since MBA people today are paid based on outcomes, not hourly rates.

And the 35-39 year olds NOT moving into St. Croix Co right now have exactly this demographic profile.

Peter Drucker, the business guru, forecast this decades ago. And I can send you a complimentary book explaining this in detail if you email me (is this o.k. Micheal?) at draves at lern dot org.

I think its the forced higer gas prices that is pushing this- not the young'ns.
following the european model, man
Like, they are molding us in to a socialist utopia, u dig?
Individual thinking and travel does not lend well to govremnet control.
this future has been planned for you by your overlords- where you live and where you can easily go is being planed by the "Man"....Man.
Get in line.

Since we are discussing trains and lightrail, I read were Amtrak is reporting record ridership this year:

"WASHINGTON -- Amtrak trains carried 31.2 million passengers in the fiscal year ending in September, the highest annual ridership since it was formed in 1971, the passenger railroad said last week.

Ridership grew 3.5% over the past 12 months compared with the previous budget year, and ticket revenue jumped 6.8% to a best-ever $2.02 billion, Amtrak said. Ridership has increased every year but one over the past decade, and is up almost 50% from 2000...."

http://www.freep.com/article/20121014/FEATURES07/310140042/Amtrak-ends-fiscal-year-with-highest-ridership-ever-31-2-million

I also read where Republicans also want to cut funding:

"...At the same time ridership has been increasing, Republicans have stepped up their campaign to end federal subsidies to Amtrak. Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, has accused Amtrak of “Soviet-style” inefficiency and held several hearings devoted to criticism of the railroad..."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/amtrak-ridership-hits-record-high-even-as-republicans-call-for-eliminating-federal-subsidies/2012/10/09/91ddc2da-128e-11e2-9a39-1f5a7f6fe945_story.html

Notice the "Soviet-style" comment. Perhaps too many members of ACORN are riding Amtrak. Perhaps ACORN is using Amtrak to shipped illegal immigrants from Chicag to Milwaukee to perpetrate voter fraud...

William, you can push your trains for Hudson all you want, but actual data shows that it won't work in this area. (And even I thought the North Star might be a good idea)

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentaries/173964061.html

Carbon, "it won't work in this area" is a fascinating comment. It is, of course, what residents here said 100 years ago when defending the horse and buggy against the invading horseless carriage.

Today St. Paul is planning a light rail line within 10 miles of Hudson, St. Paul will reopen Union Station, and many people are advocating extending the North Star to St. Cloud. This would indicate trains and light rail are already "working in our area."

My question back to you is what you see as the alternative solution to the decline of St. Croix County. Thanks for responding and for all your comments.

Carbon, transportation data would agree with you on one point, and not find any evidence on another of your points.

The data would agree with you that people who like trains will move where there are trains. This is of course, what young people are doing, and why they have stopped moving into St. Croix County, according to the U.S. Census Bureau and housing experts.

The data would not confirm your statement that "people do not travel where the trains go." For example a recent article in The New York Times reported that trains have replaced cars and planes as the leading transportation choice between New York and DC, and between New York and Boston, especially for business people, who are central and critical to economic prosperity. There is no study that says a given train route is losing market share to cars, as Jim Bob illustrates with his stat that train ridership is up 50% over ten years ago.

IT WORKED BACK IT 1800...AND IT'LL WORK AGAIN I TELLS YA!!!

Jim Bob, here's the common understanding about the terms.
Light rail is different from commuter rail, regular trains and high speed rail. Light rail is what the Twin Cities has, Hiawatha from Mall to downtown. Meant for travel within cities. They have different track and cars than "commuter rail" and "trains." So you would not take "light rail" to Eau Claire.

"Commuter rail" and "trains" are both the same in terms of track and train cars. "Commuter rail" is just a term meant to describe that commuters would take it to the city to work, but that's all that means. We would describe a train from Eau Claire to St. Paul, with a stop in Hudson, as "commuter rail" but it's just a regular train.

High-speed rail can be very different, or not, depending on what one thinks of as "high speed." Between 79 mph and about 130 mph its the same track and train cars, the difference in speed limits is the rail crossing systems.

Real high speed, like California, has track with no crossings.

Jim Bob, if in the future you were to take the rail to EC from Hudson, it would probably be called commuter rail. But that totally depends on whatever the government decides to build. There are lots of proposals and ideas. There is no plan.

For example, the for profit rail company SNCF has proposed to build a truly high speed train at 220 mph from Chicago to Twin Cities through Eau Claire. The interesting thing about this proposal is that SNCF believes it would be very profitable, that private trains can make big money. Today the debate is cars vs. trains. In just 8 years, when most all people will support trains, the debate will be Amtrak vs. for-profit trains.

all good till cleatus tries to go around the barrier when the choo choo comes by at 220...

Chadwick, thanks for the comment. All transportation is subsidized by taxpayers, including cars and planes. But here in Wisconsin taxpayers (you, me) are actually paying $70 million more in taxes to NOT have the train. Having the train would have saved us Wisconsin taxpayers $70 million, not cost us.

facepalm.
just like those commercials... "What are you going to do with the money you SAVED by buying a car from us!!!"

Pavil Natanovich comments,
"Draves' makes the mistake of extrapolating from the Obama recession years out into the next decade. As we put the Obama years behind us we will also move past expensive train boondogles."

Pavil, major transportation, cultural and migration changes have long term economic and generational reasons, not political ones.

Cars and suburbs are not Democratic or Republican. They grew in both D & R administrations. Neither are trains and dense communities political.

For example, before 2010 Wisconsin Republicans Tommy Thompson and Congressman Petri were both national leaders advocating for trains. And the Republican Governor of Michigan is welcoming a train from Chicago to the Motor City.

While just a small businessman, I ride Amtrak First Class (really cool) for the same reason big businessmen ride it- - we make more money on a train than in a car. And I guarantee you most all of us in First Class vote GOP. My guess is that Congresswoman Bachman will support federal funding for light rail in her district. Let's find out.

Pavil, the second important point for older adults to understand is that the changes began in 2001. That's the first report of Gen Y driving less, which is a key to understanding why St. Croix County is now in decline.

And train ridership began setting records in 2005. Both 2001 and 2005 were years which were economically prosperous and had a Republican administration nationally. So politics does not play a role in transportation or population shifts.

The reason why we don't see a decline in St. Croix County population until now is that people who are now 35 (the age group where we see a 9% drop in St. Croix County) were not old enough in 2001 to buy homes.

The facts don't support the statements made by Draves. Population growth in Hudson in 2010 & 2011 has outpaced both Hennepin and Ramsey counties. Time will tell whether the presence of passenger rail leads to more rapid population growth or not. Perhaps Draves will be proven right in the end. There just isn't any proof to back his theory right now.

Pavil, my data comes from the U.S. Census Bureau. It is the U.S. Census Bureau, as well as housing experts, who say the suburbs have now gone into decline. Their data was good enough to make national media, such as USA Today. I think we're past the "theory" stage.

we could built a 76 million dollar station in hudson...ooooo...maybe at the DOG TRACK!!!!